What was the trick to amplifying your modeler?

[Spaceboy]

I have tried the whole FRFR dogshit wormhole, I’ve tried all the various modelers, profilers, etc. I’ve never been 100% satisfied with digital amps in a live band scenario. There’s a certain presence that tube amps have that seems beyond what can be touched with EQ. Some sort of sorcery that I simply can’t figure out. Right now, I’m trying to make a Fractal AM4 work for one of my projects, using a Quilter bass amp as my power amp. I’ve went through numerous solid state power amps over the years and none do the trick for me. I’m going into proper guitar cabs, the FRFR thing is a losing battle.

I’m curious about this new Wampler and Friedman thing, but it’s not out yet.

Has anybody else struggled to fully enjoy modeling, but found some trick or piece of gear that made it click or be usable for you? I’m trying to avoid moving towards a tube power amp, that somewhat negates the whole compact and lightweight thing.

 

[Candiria]

The KSR PA-100. It's not light weight but it's not heavy, maybe 25 pounds. There's also the PA-50 which is the lunchbox style version that's a bit lighter.

The hi-fi switch on it let's you run the amp modeling on the Axe Fx instead of having to bypass which gives you way more control over the sound and the negative feedback control helps dial in the feel.

 

[jski59]

I’ve used an fm3 live for years and struggled with that as well, here’s what helped me.

Create your presets and adjust everything at gig volumes. I also started tuning my presets in the garage (sonically closer to the average shitty venue) vs inside my bright guitar room with hardwood floor.

Strip it down to input (gate off)-amp-output to start. Too much sauce can really dull the sound. The gate is good, but turned off feels much more amp-like.

Biggest change: changed main amp model from the Be100 to a 2203 with a boost…boom, there’s the cut lol.

 

[romanianreaper]

I'm with you man. On paper that is all I've ever wanted, being able to hear what I hear in headphones amplified in a live setting.

I never even got to the live gig with a modeller because even in my own room, didnt sound right. I had a Fractal Axe-Fx II years ago and loved it. I bought a small FRFR Matrix 1x12, then Friedman ASM-12 and couldn't get rid of that tone you are describing.

About a year ago, I tried to jump back in with a Friedman IR-X and Fender FRFR cab. Still had that same tone that just sounded bland and harsh.

Like you, I can't figure out what it is. To me, it feels like using a real power amp and cab is the only thing that seems to sound right but then you are limited and only using the preamp Sims.

It seems like the only success stories are users who plug right into the P.A. but have also heard the LANEY FRFR cab kicks ass and people love it.

 

[baron55]

I have tried the whole FRFR dogshit wormhole, I’ve tried all the various modelers, profilers, etc. I’ve never been 100% satisfied with digital amps in a live band scenario. There’s a certain presence that tube amps have that seems beyond what can be touched with EQ. Some sort of sorcery that I simply can’t figure out. Right now, I’m trying to make a Fractal AM4 work for one of my projects, using a Quilter bass amp as my power amp. I’ve went through numerous solid state power amps over the years and none do the trick for me. I’m going into proper guitar cabs, the FRFR thing is a losing battle.

I’m curious about this new Wampler and Friedman thing, but it’s not out yet.

Has anybody else struggled to fully enjoy modeling, but found some trick or piece of gear that made it click or be usable for you? I’m trying to avoid moving towards a tube power amp, that somewhat negates the whole compact and lightweight thing.

Most of the small light power amps are class D digital amps which introduce latency. Now the companies will say the latency is no more than the latency you would have standing 10 feet from the cab. Yes, that may be true, but what they don't tell you is, but the actual latency doubles because you add the digital latency from the amp + the speaker distance.


The old SS Class A/B Mosfet power amps of the late 80's and early 90's like the Tube Works Mosvale and others, may be a good choice as they tried to introduce the damping effect of tube amps.

But I had the same issues as you and went Tube Power Amp for the win.

 

[VonBonfire]

Has anybody else struggled to fully enjoy modeling, but found some trick or piece of gear that made it click or be usable for you?

I've struggled with the idea that someone would choose modeling gear over a good tube amp but we are in an age when men think they can be women so it comes as no surprise that there are also those people out there that believe a computer can be better than the thing it's trying to copy. It's all convenience driven. I've never smoked a cigarette that tasted better when lit by a bic instead of a zippo.

 

[rsm]

I usually use powered PA cabs with my modelers. One trick I always use with modelers and FRFR is to have a shelving EQ, one for the low end, one for the high end, to cut frequencies outside of the guitar range. Placement in the chain depends; I like it before the cab or before the power amp block.

I have an ISP Theta Stealth; 90W per side, 180W bridged mono; it has stereo in/out if you use both channels. I use it with my ISP Theta Pro Michael Sweet and MSX and a pair of Mesa Compact 2x12 cabs. @JackBootedThug just got one.

FWIW, I still have the ISP Stealth power amp, but I moved some gear around, and now use my Engl E850/100 tube power amp with my ISP Theta's

ISP Stealth power amp is worth a look

 

[jski59]

fwiw, I tried a bunch of power amps (qsc gx5, fryette powerstation, Duncan powerstage, katana return) and didn’t hear a massive difference at the volumes I normally play. But the bigger amps did hold together better at shake the house volume.

I ended up sticking with the small ps170, works fine for my brown sound tones.

 

[rsm]

I've struggled with the idea that someone would choose modeling gear over a good tube amp but we are in an age when men think they can be women so it comes as no surprise that there are also those people out there that believe a computer can be better than the thing it's trying to copy. It's all convenience driven. I've never smoked a cigarette that tasted better when lit by a bic instead of a zippo.

Getting good tones from a modeler is more challenging vs a tube amp you happen to like.

Most modelers aren't designed for "amp in the room" sounds, but you can get good results with some, like Fractal - you have a few options. Shelving EQs help IME. You can turn off the cab mics, or go into the Cab block and knock yourself out tweaking- https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cab_block

If you mic to FOH or record, your amp tone is being post-processed through solid state or even digital gear.

I play for my own enjoyment, and I use my computer plugins more than anything else, more than my 10 or so tube amps. My computer plugin rig replaced my hardware modelers except my SY-1000.

In the room, nothing beats a tube amp for raw guitar tones; but it's not the only guitar sounds I like, use or want.

More tools in the tool box vs using a hammer for everything.

 

[ChurchHill]

For me, part of the problem is that, when I plug into a modeler, it's usually a preset that has some pedals in front, then the amp, then some more effects, then 1 or more IRs, then some post processing, and finally out to whatever I'm listening through. When I plug into an amp, at least when I first turn it on, it's just my guitar into the amp into the cab in the room. It's a very different experience because the signal isn't being processed by so many things, at least as first. @jski59 already mentioned this earlier; for me, it was a big thing realizing that the signal chain was almost always very different.

Another thing is the IR. There are so many... some are really good, many are just OK, and some are really bad. ALL of them are just a very short slice of a moment in time where a real speaker is almost a living breathing thing that reacts somewhat differently to every signal change. A real speaker is dynamic and IRs or Dynacabs or whatever you want to call it is still the least modeled part of the digital-only solution. Finding a good one that gets you close enough is critical, but at this point in time, it's just an impulse response and not truly modeled in the same sense as component level modeling used by some digital products. Of course, the way around this is to use a real cabinet and doing that can get closer.

Option paralysis is a real thing, even for those of us who love having options... I've been playing through rack effects since '90, so was already used to editing presets and everything that goes with it when I first played through a POD about 20 years ago. But... there is something to be said for having a guitar with one pickup plugged into an amp with 6 knobs and 1 cab with 4x12" speakers... think LPJr into a Plexi halfstack... that is a very immediate thing, it's a very tactile thing... there is NO optional paralysis. That's where this all started, isn't it? Just needing to be heard better, so TURN IT UP, right? It helped me to try to keep that basic thought in mind when trying to get a better sound from a modeler.

But for me, nothing, and I mean nothing, is ever going to or even could ever replace the eviscerating experience of standing in front of a cranked Plexi or the nuclear impact of a Diezel or soaring with a Bogner or being crushed by a Mesa. No pedal is ever going to replace that experience, and no modeler can do it, at least not yet.

 

[GJgo]

Are you guys trying to go from the modeler to an amp to a cab? Then how are you getting into the PA?

I just got an AM4. Into my DAW, meh. Out of my studio monitors, same meh. I haven't tried it with FRFR yet but a buddy has a rackmount Fractal, Crown power amp to a FRFR 4x12 and that gets some decent tones- but not tube amp quality.

All that being said, the AM4 direct to the PA is killing it in the live band and so far (and all my band mates agree) is superior to micing a cab. In this setting, the tones are cutting & easy for everyone to hear at reasonable volumes, and sound just like polished album tones. The key I've found is to only use the PA / monitors and don't also try & run a cab. Having sound coming from both a cab & monitors really muds things up- you need one source of truth.

I put this together to hear some comparos. Note when I do not run a HPF the PA tones are moving plenty of air to feel satisfied. When I do, guitar alone gets much less satisfying..

 

[ChurchHill]

All that being said, the AM4 direct to the PA is killing it in the live band and so far (and all my band mates agree) is superior to micing a cab.

This is just about the only justification for modelers I can see at the moment. The consistency for live sound... LOL! And I don't gig regularly anymore.

Sure, they can be fun and inspirational, but so can just flipping the stand-by switch on a Marshall.

 

[stratjacket]

Not sure your setup, but just in case, make sure if you’re using FRFR or PA, enable Power Amp emulation on the Fractal. If you’re using a Power amp and guitar cab, disable Power Amp emulation in the Fractal.

I think the thing that helped me years ago is realizing the Modeler is a full chain to a recording console and will sound more like a recorded guitar tone instead of an amp/cab in the room. Coming to grips with that and just accept that it’s a variant and different sound then EQ it to cut through a band setting.

You probably already know these things but to me it’s the foundation that is missed a lot when I read sometimes it doesn’t have the cab in the room feel of the real thing.

To @ChurchHill , yeah I agree with the presets. Wouldn’t use them for anything other than to see possibilities. I’ve always had better results starting with a blank slate and add the amp and cab, get that sounding ok, then add Drive, delay, etc…for what sound I’m trying to get. Just like I’d setup a real chain.

 

[ChurchHill]

Yeah, one of the first things I did was create a bunch of presets that were just amp and cab, one for each amp model. Gave me a clean slate and a starting point to learn what each could do. My basic approach was to treat it like its real-world counterpart.

And I agree... realizing that a modeler is the full chain vs AITR is a foundational concept that is not always well understood, at least based on the traffic I see on the Fractal forum.

 

[rsm]

Yeah, one of the first things I did was create a bunch of presets that were just amp and cab, one for each amp model. Gave me a clean slate and a starting point to learn what each could do. My basic approach was to treat it like its real-world counterpart.

And I agree... realizing that a modeler is the full chain vs AITR is a foundational concept that is not always well understood, at least based on the traffic I see on the Fractal forum.

this is what I do with modelers too. I find 2-3 clean amp/cab I like, a few genre-specific rhythm amp/cab (60's jangle & chime, psychedelic, 70s hard rock, '80s hair metal, thrash; high gain, prog), and a few lead tones. - I start with the same amp/cab in the corresponding rhythm tone. Then I tweak the mics/mice placement, add effects; I usually keep my rhythm tones mostly dry, maybe some doubling, pitch shifting to thicken it. then organize them by genre. It can get time consuming.

I end up with around 20 or so patches. It's methodical now, just takes time to go through the options. Over time I may go back and revisit other amp and cab models.

other than the SY-1000, and VP4 for effects, I ditched hardware modelers for software plugins.

 

[CoreyW]

Yeah, one of the first things I did was create a bunch of presets that were just amp and cab, one for each amp model. Gave me a clean slate and a starting point to learn what each could do. My basic approach was to treat it like its real-world counterpart.

And I agree... realizing that a modeler is the full chain vs AITR is a foundational concept that is not always well understood, at least based on the traffic I see on the Fractal forum.

I came to a conclusion years ago, that “amp in the room” is largely irrelevant.

If you try and record what you’re playing, what actually gets tracked isn’t the amp in the room, the mic and everything else down the chain has altered what you are hearing from the amp.

Playing in front of people without a mic, the amp sound is changing depending on where you are in the venue, and the overall sound is effected by other instruments.

Playing in front of people and micing the cab, it’s a combination of the two above. Depending on what is louder and where the listener is, will determine which of the two are most pronounced. For simplicity’s sake, I’m not including a potential sound guy further altering the sound.


Personally I’m pretty content hearing what I am playing through as a listener would ultimately end up hearing it.

 

[Spaceboy]

I've struggled with the idea that someone would choose modeling gear over a good tube amp but we are in an age when men think they can be women so it comes as no surprise that there are also those people out there that believe a computer can be better than the thing it's trying to copy. It's all convenience driven. I've never smoked a cigarette that tasted better when lit by a bic instead of a zippo.

Bitch, I haul around two SVTs and 8x10s in my other band. I don’t care for whatever tired old man spooky trans bullshit you’re going on about.

 

[VonBonfire]

Bitch, I haul around two SVTs and 8x10s in my other band. I don’t care for whatever tired old man spooky trans bullshit you’re going on about.

Are you like this at band practice too? Asking for a friend.

 

[Fusionbear]

I hear guys complain all the time about not getting the "right" sound. But, I do not understand that.

I'm getting killer live tones with my FM9T and QSC CP12 or CP8 live set up. Plenty of volume if needed too! I do a side by side comparison at home with my tube amps to dial in...

 

[romanianreaper]

This is just about the only justification for modelers I can see at the moment. The consistency for live sound... LOL! And I don't gig regularly anymore.

Sure, they can be fun and inspirational, but so can just flipping the stand-by switch on a Marshall.

Yep that seems to be the solution, to the P.A My band just can't depend on there being some phenomenal P.A. available.

I was talking to a friend about modelling today and he said he just doesn't want to do it, ever. At the end of the day it is whatever works for that individual player. For me, I think I need to stick to transistor and smaller tube amp solutions.

As i've mentioned before, I just need a lighter solution, fairly reliable and sound good. At my age, I can want a big 4x12 all day long but is not good for my knees, back, and prior surgery locations, lol.