Devin
Well-known member
My go-to toanes:
Guitar: Bright & Tight
Bass: Ass & Glass (RIP TM Stevens)
It's really as simple as that for me
Guitar: Bright & Tight
Bass: Ass & Glass (RIP TM Stevens)
It's really as simple as that for me
What would you consider your biggest tonal realisation that has made an impact on the way you dial in gear?
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
This isn’t always the case, but I find I usually get a lot more clarity by running a moderate amount of gain through more gain stages, compared to really cranking fewer gain stages closer to their limits, even though the overall amount of gain feels about the same in both scenarios.
One isn’t necessarily better than the other, it’s just a useful trick to know when you need it.
One isn’t necessarily better than the other, it’s just a useful trick to know when you need it.
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anomaly
Well-known member
Using less gain is cool and all, but using a shit ton of gain worked for some guitarists. Most notably, Dimebag and he didn't sound tiny.
My biggest tonal realization was when I started to realize speakers have the biggest impact on tone.
My biggest tonal realization was when I started to realize speakers have the biggest impact on tone.
DanTravis62
Moderator
The only problem is i'm younger than you, so I require a better caricature
I have an entirely full head of hair, and have never worn a mustache in my entire life
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TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
One of the biggest tropes in all of guitar tone is that "guitar is a MID RANGE instrument so that means you have to CRANK YOUR MIDS TO 10 AND BREAK OFF THE KNOB for that SWEET SWEET MIDRANGE ALL MIDS BABY WOOOO" which is one of those half-truths or quarter-truths that got blown out of proportion by people wanting to break good knowledge down into a catch phrase. Cranking your mids and making that all you care about will make you sound like you're playing through a half cocked wah into a megaphone.
Guitar does live primarily in the mids but our brain contextualizes frequencies relative to other frequencies around them, which means the treble and bass in your tone is what contextualizes those mids. If your guitar is just mids, you'll get note definition but your tone will be very small. Guitar players with good ears who scoop mids don't scoop them because they hate mids, they do it because they want more relative bass and treble because it makes the tone sound bigger and wider, at least outside of the mix, which leads me to...
When dialing in your tone, remember that your overall volume will be set to balance using the reference point of the loudest part of your sound, and usually your highest highs and lowest lows will be filtered out in post. Scooping those mids too much will just leave you with a bunch of fizz and boom, which will get filtered away and then there's nothing left of your sound to amplify. However, cranking your mids up too much translates to nothing more than turning your mids and bass down. If you leave your bass low and crank your treble, making that the loudest part of your sound, you're going to be mixed so the treble balances with everything while your mids and bass will be left behind and your tone will have no weight at all. To get the biggest sound, you want your tone to be BALANCED overall.
Guitar does live primarily in the mids but our brain contextualizes frequencies relative to other frequencies around them, which means the treble and bass in your tone is what contextualizes those mids. If your guitar is just mids, you'll get note definition but your tone will be very small. Guitar players with good ears who scoop mids don't scoop them because they hate mids, they do it because they want more relative bass and treble because it makes the tone sound bigger and wider, at least outside of the mix, which leads me to...
When dialing in your tone, remember that your overall volume will be set to balance using the reference point of the loudest part of your sound, and usually your highest highs and lowest lows will be filtered out in post. Scooping those mids too much will just leave you with a bunch of fizz and boom, which will get filtered away and then there's nothing left of your sound to amplify. However, cranking your mids up too much translates to nothing more than turning your mids and bass down. If you leave your bass low and crank your treble, making that the loudest part of your sound, you're going to be mixed so the treble balances with everything while your mids and bass will be left behind and your tone will have no weight at all. To get the biggest sound, you want your tone to be BALANCED overall.
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DanTravis62
Moderator
People constantly putting mids on mids is how every MoDerN guitar tone now sounds like Misha Mansoor *boing boing boing*
high output pickups, 808, high gain midrange dense amp like 5150, v30s with more midrange, 57 with even MORE midrange, and then get some midrange grunt out of it with that 1176 why dontcha?
shredi knight
Well-known member
The caricature is meant to represent your inner grumpy old man, so I say it's accurate.
DanTravis62
Moderator
The caricature is meant to represent your inner grumpy old man, so I say it's accurate.
My inner bald, white, mustached old man, which doesn't exist
Fine but im accepting this under duress
It's really disconcerting how many RTers don't know what the fuck they're doing or what they're talking about
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
Dude I hate the modern djent tone. It's awful. The guitars sound small and flat, like they're coming from an AM radio or something, because it's nothing but mids everywhere. And yeah there's also something that happens to the attack of a guitar when you tune guitar-sized strings that low that just sounds like shit. I hear it as a kind of "10,000 lb. pig oink" if that makes sense, and it bugs the crap out of me.
Like the entire effect of the heaviness is just gone. Think about what is supposed to be happening. The music is obviously using sound to try and convey power, impact, devastation, but all that goes out the window when the guitars just sound like a fucking cartoon. GET READY TO GET FUCKED UP OH SHIIIIIIII "onk onk oink onk onk onk" welp nevermind I guess.
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DanTravis62
Moderator
It has no tone besides the initial attack. It sounds like a boing or oink when they are playing at moderate speeds, but when they play faster or staccato it sounds like television static or white noise, because there's too much midrange
It's a similar thing to what happens with the tone wars guys tone, or guys who use high output pickups into boosts into modern high gain amps. just gain on gain on gain on midboost on gain like youre 12 years old lol. it turns into television static or white noise, because there's too much midrange (and gain)
shredi knight
Well-known member
My inner bald, white, mustached old man, which doesn't exist
Fine but im accepting this under duress
It's really disconcerting how many RTers don't know what the fuck they're doing or what they're talking about
FINE!!! ...
BeZo
Well-known member
Dimebag had some of the thinnest guitar tones ever. On album, the engineer would fix it and make him sound better, but left to his own devices, he is all hiss and mud. It there was a second guitar player in Pantera with even a Cannibal Corpse scooped Rectifier tone, you would never hear Dime in the mix. When I think "huge guitars", I don't thing hiss and shrill.
The Cleveland metal scene from 20 years ago taught me that. Scoop the mids only works if you're the only guitarist and can afford for someone to fix it later.
DanTravis62
Moderator
DanTravis62
Moderator
Or, if it's scooped in one part of the signal chain and added back in another, like sepultura and other thrash/death metal bands
That seems to work as well
E
ElMuchoDingo
Member
less bass and much more mids. I love a heavy bass thump out of a 4x12 but it doesn't work anywhere outside of the basement. Use the mids and an eq to carve out your area, especially if your playing with a second guitarist.
hellzington
Well-known member
This is a great point, even outside of Djent. In the studio, it's very easy to stack too many things. The midrange example here is a good one, and another is compressors.
Think about it. You are playing a high gain amp which is already a compressed signal, then maybe you have a compressor in front of your amp, then you put that into a DAW where you compress again with plugins, maybe an additional multiband compressor to keep palm mutes in control, then you mix and master and add bus compressors. Next thing you know, you get to the mastering phase, where you're using another compressor, and your DR (Dynamic Range) is shit and the guitars are flat and buzzy. What happened?
You took a compressed signal and then compressed it like five more times. Even if the ratios are low, like 1.5:1 or 2:1, they add up quickly to an already compressed signal. You have to be very cognizant of over-stacking compressors on your guitars or you'll end up with a flat mix that doesn't breathe or pump, and isn't "gluey" enough. It will sound like the guitars are just layered over the track, not like everyone is playing in the same room.
Other examples are muddy buildup in the 60hz-250hz range (fixable via sidechain ducking), guitar midrange distortion and harmonic buildup in the 300hz and 700hz ranges, and tape saturation buildup (which is surprisingly easy to do once you start bouncing tracks or creating buses).
crankyrayhanky
Well-known member
Lots of interesting ideas in here, can be amazing or awful....
Everything is 100% dependent on the material and vibe that you are going after.
Playing live in your basement solo? Crank up that gain! We need to cover all of the sonic ground and it is fun..
Quad tracking hi gain in the studio? 2 of the 4 tracks are probably best being closer to Malcolm gain levels
Everything is 100% dependent on the material and vibe that you are going after.
Playing live in your basement solo? Crank up that gain! We need to cover all of the sonic ground and it is fun..
Quad tracking hi gain in the studio? 2 of the 4 tracks are probably best being closer to Malcolm gain levels
Tone Monster
Well-known member
Mmmmmm couldnt disagree more with #1 and couldn't agree more with #3!!!
DanTravis62
Moderator
This is soooo true about the compression
People always ask me how I get the guitar to sound so big, and it's literally a matter of having it be gainy enough sound aggressive and like the genre, while still having some clean transients, and not overcompressing it at any point in the signal chain
Overcompression, just like overdoing midrange is one of those classic "new to recording mistakes©"
It's high gain guitar, it's ALREADY going to sound compressed and aggressive in comparison to everything else in the mix - use those tools sparingly and where they are really needed - like using a multiband to make palm mutes more controlled, etc
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