Where does the tone come from?

[mr11]

So can someone explain to me in not so technical terms where amp tone comes from?

From what I understand the preamp is where most of the magic happens and the power amp is sort of a slave to what the preamp gives it. I guess my question is, what is it about the design of the circuit that leads to different tones? Different combinations of resistors, capacitors, transformers etc? Most amps seems to have similar preamp tubes so I can't imagine the tubes alone being the cause for tonal differences.

Is it something where an amp builder can say, "I want x tone" and build a circuit with that in mind or is it more trial and error?

I think tube amps are fascinating but I really don't have much of an idea of how they actually do what they do.

 

[LowDesertSludge]

If you truely are intererested in that subject, I suggest a trip to amazon for any of the books written by Gerald Weber. His books will answer any question you can come up with.

 

[SFW]

Simple answer... In a modern high gain tube amp, the preamp is where 90% of the tone and gain are shaped. The power amp simply amplifies the signal to the desired level of volume. The more simple the preamp circuit, the more the poweramp plays a part in the overall tone of the amplifier. So, for example, the power section of say a Plexi or a Bassman head has a much larger role in the "tone" of the amp- because there is not as much going on in the preamp circuit. Make sense?

 

[mr11]

Yeah that makes sense.

I guess my question is more along the lines of what is it about the preamp circuit that dictates tone? If you have 2 similarly high gain heads like a bogner uberschall and a soldano slo, I would imagine the preamp is largely responsible for the tone of both, yet they sound distinctly different. So how is the circuit design creating that difference?

I imagine this question is one that can;t really be answered without some serious knowledge of the inner workings. I'll have to check out that book.

 

[Marshall Law]

Here we go again

 

[mr11]

I assume you're referring to tone being in your hand/how you play?

I think theres a difference between style and tone. Playing an open string sounds different between amps. Has nothing to do with your style or how you play.

 

[Ventura]

Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

 

[gtrwun]

....

 

[mr11]

Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

I think we are getting lost in semantics here. I'd call what you're describing style or character.. something sort of abstract that there aren't good words for.

I'm talking about an inherent quality of the amp. If I have my mark IV and I turn up my gain nob on the lead channel I have a different amp tone than I did before I turned the nob. The tone of the amp changed because of some modification to the circuit facilitated by the pot.

Eric Clapton playing through a marshall MG would still sound like Clapton, no argument there. Doesn't mean his tone won't suck.

 

[thunda]

Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

I think we are getting lost in semantics here. I'd call what you're describing style or character.. something sort of abstract that there aren't good words for.

I'm talking about an inherent quality of the amp. If I have my mark IV and I turn up my gain nob on the lead channel I have a different amp tone than I did before I turned the nob. The tone of the amp changed because of some modification to the circuit facilitated by the pot.

Eric Clapton playing through a marshall MG would still sound like Clapton, no argument there. Doesn't mean his tone won't suck.

 

[Ventura]

Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

I think we are getting lost in semantics here. I'd call what you're describing style or character.. something sort of abstract that there aren't good words for.

I'm talking about an inherent quality of the amp. If I have my mark IV and I turn up my gain nob on the lead channel I have a different amp tone than I did before I turned the nob. The tone of the amp changed because of some modification to the circuit facilitated by the pot.

Eric Clapton playing through a marshall MG would still sound like Clapton, no argument there. Doesn't mean his tone won't suck.

Okay, so, we now know that (k)nobs are what change the "fundamental" tone of an amp... How fundamental do you want to get here? There are 3 basic circuits out there in the world of amps today, and the 3rd is an offspring of 1 of the 2 primaries (we've got British Circuit, American circuit, and Soldano - seriously). Marshall, Fender/Mesa, and the rest is up in the air - aside from Mike Soldano, who did his own thing (and let's set aside the "crystal lattice of Dumble" and all that Lords of the Rings bullshit).

You wanna know about tone stack placement in the system of an amp? Diode clipping versus voltage over-rates? Caps being mustard or Zoso's? What's your question???

I tone test for a few nice manufacturers - I'd be happy to explain everything once I know what it is you're asking.

OH!! And let's not forget the pups, the drivers, the cab, the resonant/sonic qualities of the room, the volume, the sag, the bias rating, the tubes, the preamp glass, the noise floor, the sizzle versus fizzle, the low-end response versus high-end articulation, the punch, the smooth, the grain, the chew...

Jesus man, you've opened a can of fkn worms

Uncle Mo

 

[mr11]

Ha yeah now we are getting to it. This might be one of those areas where I don't know enough to know what to ask... if that makes sense.

In a broad strokes kind of way I just don't conceptually understand what makes amps sound different from one another, I guess everything you just mentioned plays its own small part.

Take the basic 3 board designs you mentioned: What is fundamentally different between them to make them worth being their own category (again I dont know if this a question that can practically be answered).

You know, I guess the real question is how/where did you learn all this Maybe I should read that book.

As far as the can of worms, I need my post count up anyway

 

[thiswaythatway]

Tone comes from a mouse click. Haven't the Fractal people convinced you all of that by now?

 

[Ventura]

Ha yeah now we are getting to it. This might be one of those areas where I don't know enough to know what to ask... if that makes sense.

In a broad strokes kind of way I just don't conceptually understand what makes amps sound different from one another, I guess everything you just mentioned plays its own small part.

Take the basic 3 board designs you mentioned: What is fundamentally different between them to make them worth being their own category (again I dont know if this a question that can practically be answered).

You know, I guess the real question is how/where did you learn all this Maybe I should read that book.

As far as the can of worms, I need my post count up anyway

After my morning surf tomorrow, I'll follow up on some basic concepts of circuit and tonal paradigms. But ultimately, it's a fusion of circuit, sonic, science and magic.

Everything is interconnected and dependent on the sum and extrapolation of the contingent parts and entireties.

It's good shit - for a profound denunciation of simpler verbose

Mo

PS: Catch ya after my surf in the a.m., peace....

 

[moltenmetalburn]

Tube guitar amplifiers are a series of gain stages.

The preamp section and the power sections are the two main blocks.

The preamps are as mentioned earlier primarily based on four preamp topologies which are different by number of gain stages and frequency shaping before, between and after each stage.

Think fender clean, jtm45 plexi crunch, Marshall 800 roar and soldano Mesa gain.

The frequency shaping and electrical bias for each stage set the amount of compressing and distortion each stage adds to the cumulative effect.


Some mention tone is the fingers.

This is half true.

Your personal technique is responsible for how well your inflections are revealed by the amplifier.

Dynamic range is directly related to how much of this we can hear.

I don't care if you are master of the guitar universe if I set up and amp to have an over compressed over distorted lifeless tone MOST of the wonderful things about a great guitar player are masked entirely. Good gear set up properly reveals more of a great players individual nuance. Bad gear set up wonderfully CAN reveal SOME. The idea that al of it is the the fingers is cute but misguided and based on something other than science. Probably voodoo or the dark arts.

Nuances are NOT transferred through ANY piece of gear. What goes in only matters if it represents what comes back out. If that we're true I would have the cheapest crap possible out on the road every time with every artist. Some crap gear can however be set up well and cost does not equate how well an amplifier is designed, typically it only effects components which do give the final result their own sonic signatures.



The knobs do not change the fundamental tone of an amplifier, that is backward.

The fundamental tone is set and shaped by the permanent frequency filtering decisions made as discussed previously. The knobs do nothing more than to manipulate the each at three frequency centers complimentary to the already predetermined fundamental frequency shaping.

Someone mentioned high gain amps being primarily preamp based in terms of eq shaping. This is true but does not mean that there are not exceptions.
There are many.

Each amplifier designer makes his own choices based on his own tastes. I can get whatever is desired out of most high gain amps, it's about proper gain stage usage and individual design choice.

Yes if planning an amp build you can easily define a starting point based on previous designs, it is how 90 percent of the amps have been designed at the moment.

 

[MIchbiking]

I wish I knew more about amp design and electronics like this. I'm totally fascinated by it and wish I was more hip.

Me too , but i have no clue where to start.

 

[gtrwun]

I wish I knew more about amp design and electronics like this. I'm totally fascinated by it and wish I was more hip.

Me too , but i have no clue where to start.

A great way to start is buying a amp kit and putting it together yourself. I did an 18watt kit myself that I bought from Ceriatone and it was actually a lot of fun and it worked the first time I fired it up. With the online help you can get on various forums like Metro and such, the tools are out there for even the most amature electronics guy. Buy some books too. The Gerald Weber stuff is good. There are some snippets on you tube of some of his instructional video's too.

 

[reverymike]

Yes, amps sound different. But you can take one player and have them play a lick thru an amp. . .and then have a second player play the exact same lick thru the same amp, and it's going to sound different. In some case, it's going to sound drastically different (depending how far apart the players are skill-wise).

But, I digress -- as this discussion is about the actual components of the amps, and not the users.

 

[Ventura]

I wish I knew more about amp design and electronics like this. I'm totally fascinated by it and wish I was more hip.

Ya, but.... The difference is you drive these fuckers and make great videos which, IMHO, is more important than figuring out the whys and the whats as to how it all happens

More to follow, I've been at 3 breaks today and logged about 8 hours of surf time.

I'm fkn punched.

Mojo

 

[mr11]

Tube guitar amplifiers are a series of gain stages.

The preamp section and the power sections are the two main blocks.

The preamps are as mentioned earlier primarily based on four preamp topologies which are different by number of gain stages and frequency shaping before, between and after each stage.

Think fender clean, jtm45 plexi crunch, Marshall 800 roar and soldano Mesa gain.

The frequency shaping and electrical bias for each stage set the amount of compressing and distortion each stage adds to the cumulative effect.


Some mention tone is the fingers.

This is half true.

Your personal technique is responsible for how well your inflections are revealed by the amplifier.

Dynamic range is directly related to how much of this we can hear.

I don't care if you are master of the guitar universe if I set up and amp to have an over compressed over distorted lifeless tone MOST of the wonderful things about a great guitar player are masked entirely. Good gear set up properly reveals more of a great players individual nuance. Bad gear set up wonderfully CAN reveal SOME. The idea that al of it is the the fingers is cute but misguided and based on something other than science. Probably voodoo or the dark arts.

Nuances are NOT transferred through ANY piece of gear. What goes in only matters if it represents what comes back out. If that we're true I would have the cheapest crap possible out on the road every time with every artist. Some crap gear can however be set up well and cost does not equate how well an amplifier is designed, typically it only effects components which do give the final result their own sonic signatures.



The knobs do not change the fundamental tone of an amplifier, that is backward.

The fundamental tone is set and shaped by the permanent frequency filtering decisions made as discussed previously. The knobs do nothing more than to manipulate the each at three frequency centers complimentary to the already predetermined fundamental frequency shaping.

Someone mentioned high gain amps being primarily preamp based in terms of eq shaping. This is true but does not mean that there are not exceptions.
There are many.

Each amplifier designer makes his own choices based on his own tastes. I can get whatever is desired out of most high gain amps, it's about proper gain stage usage and individual design choice.

Yes if planning an amp build you can easily define a starting point based on previous designs, it is how 90 percent of the amps have been designed at the moment.

So you mentioned tone shaping... This is an additive quality of all of the components between the gain stages? These components are normally resistors and capacitors etc? So I guess at the most basic level tone is a wave function and these components alter this function in one way or another?

I'd love to do an amp build, but it's pretty intimidating and I have little experience with electronics. It was a struggle for me to switch out the pick ups in my guitar...

I appreciate all the answers, very informative. Keep em coming