Where does the tone come from?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mr11
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I tend to think it is both the player and the gear that makes an individual tone. But, gear definitely influences a guitarist's technique.

I tend to gravitate towards amps that are clear, transparent, or amps that track more quickly than others. This allows more of what the player does to be transferred through the amp, and to the listener's ears. Something as simple as pick attack can either be accentuated, or completely masked-over by the amp itself. If I was to play a particular chord through my Mark III, you would hear each one of the strings get hit, and you could also hear the amount of pressure each string was struck with. If I played the same chord through my Rectos, you would hear each string as it was hit, but you wouldn't be able to tell what attack each string was picked with. So, he way I play through each amp changes a little bit, and one amp transfers more of my "personality" more than the other.

Now, within the amps themselves, there are basically a few different types of circuit designs. I think of them as "Fenders", "Marshalls", and "Soldanos". Sure, you can take these types back further, but to me, they represent different approaches to amplification. They can all run off of the same types of tubes (whether it's 6L6s and it's variations, or EL34s and it's variations), but they all sound very different from the next. Anything from the capacitors in the circuit, to how the circuit is routed makes a difference on tone.

For example, the Soldano SLO had a tone all it's own that had more gain and "girth" than the amps that came before it. Several companies used the SLO to design their own "hi gain" amps. Mesa had the Rectifiers, Peavey had the 5150s, Bogner had the Ubershall along with several others. Even though each one of these companies tried to basically copy the tone of the SLO, they all sounded a little different. Each company tried to introduce little tweaks to the SLO design, and because of different capacitor values, and different signal routes, each amp has the "hi gain" circuit, but they all sound different.

Then, there's examples like comparing Mesa's Mark IIC+ and the Mark Vs channel 3. According to Mesa themselves, they copied the exact same circuit in the Mark V as the Mark IIC+. But, when they were copying the circuit, they used Doug West's Mark IIC+, which happened to be a non-GEQ model, which had a different capacitor value at the end of the circuit. This difference (which is what John Petrucci modified on his Mark V), makes a massive difference in the feel of the amp, to the point where people say that they can get a Mark V close to how a Mark IIC+, but it isn't the same.

So, tone is something that starts with the players approach to his rig, and how he has developed his technique based on his rig. The rig's tone is basically the value of the capacitors, and what the path of the circuit is.

Anyway, that's my non-technical way if explaining tone...
 
Have I mentioned I'm riding a 6' thruster in 20 footers???

There is a reason for this post... Think about it. You're asking about making art out of the tools and environ ones' given. Tone is the same as skill on the face.

Tools are tools, the momentum is something that's hard to quantify and diagnose.

I'm spent.
 
Cool stuff. Definitely making more sense in a broad kind of way.

I can still ask a million basic questions about this stuff though. So a high gain amp is modifying the signal more as it goes through the signal path than a low gain amp? Speaking of gain, is this something created by the tubes themselves or the tubes are provided the source signal that is being modified further down or further up the signal chain?

Seems like you're having a blast surfing :D
 
Ventura":2odzjcme said:
Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

Once again, someone mistaking style for tone.
 
mr11":2nyofkgv said:
So you mentioned tone shaping... This is an additive quality of all of the components between the gain stages? These components are normally resistors and capacitors etc? So I guess at the most basic level tone is a wave function and these components alter this function in one way or another?

I'd love to do an amp build, but it's pretty intimidating and I have little experience with electronics. It was a struggle for me to switch out the pick ups in my guitar...

I appreciate all the answers, very informative. Keep em coming

Building an amp kit is a great way to get into electronics, IF that is the direction you want to go in after you do the build.
Building a kit won't get you closer to understanding how the individual electronic components affect the signal put in to it and going through it.
To understand how a signal gets shaped you have to start with electricity and electronics 101, if you really want to know how and why.

The people who design those amps and kits know the how and why. Those of us who may put the kits together are simply assembling those various parts, and assembling those parts isn't going to explain why those particular parts where chosen nor why that part follows the other.

If your intent is just to understand basics and how to use what's already been designed, then plenty of players here can help.

My older brother went into the electronics field at the component level and understanding what they do and how they interact.
I went into how to use electronic products to create video and audio. :)
 
chunktone":14nf1kch said:
Ventura":14nf1kch said:
Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

Once again, someone mistaking style for tone.

It's such a hard nut to crack.
I've had this discussion/debate with my fellow players for years.
But sayings take on a life of their own.
"Tone is in the fingers" must have been created by someone who thought they were being clever, or just trying to make a point about something specific.
Whatever it's origin it's become gospel truth for some.

Movies can have a "tone". Poems can have a "tone". Plays can have a "tone".
A piece of music can have a "tone". A certain player as well can have a "tone" to their playing.
Some even called it a "voice".
In those things "tone" or "voice" means "style".

"Tone" in relation to instruments, pup's, strings, amps, tubes, speakers, wood, etc... is a different meaning.
Context is very important where same/similar words are shared.
 
C1-ocaster":x5soawn9 said:
Building an amp kit is a great way to get into electronics, IF that is the direction you want to go in after you do the build.
Building a kit won't get you closer to understanding how the individual electronic components affect the signal put in to it and going through it.
To understand how a signal gets shaped you have to start with electricity and electronics 101, if you really want to know how and why.

The people who design those amps and kits know the how and why. Those of us who may put the kits together are simply assembling those various parts, and assembling those parts isn't going to explain why those particular parts where chosen nor why that part follows the other.

If your intent is just to understand basics and how to use what's already been designed, then plenty of players here can help.

My older brother went into the electronics field at the component level and understanding what they do and how they interact.
I went into how to use electronic products to create video and audio. :)

Yeah it looks like I'm going to need to do some serious reading on the subject. Maybe I'll just go play guitar intead :lol: :LOL:
 
I like Mo's first post the best.

What DOESN'T the tone come from?

I do not build amps but I think it is safe to say everything plays a factor. I understand you are looking for a more technical answer lol.

I am with the OP. It is not in your hands, maybe a little.

To each their own opinion but that is mine. I have tested many of amps, and to get the tone I liked I even had to make several tube changes within the one amp I decided on.

Through all that testing I kept the same hands and fingers yet got different tones each time :P
 
mr11":2ou7r75m said:
Ventura":2ou7r75m said:
Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

I think we are getting lost in semantics here. I'd call what you're describing style or character.. something sort of abstract that there aren't good words for.

I'm talking about an inherent quality of the amp. If I have my mark IV and I turn up my gain nob on the lead channel I have a different amp tone than I did before I turned the nob. The tone of the amp changed because of some modification to the circuit facilitated by the pot.

Eric Clapton playing through a marshall MG would still sound like Clapton, no argument there. Doesn't mean his tone won't suck.

I dont think tone VS style is necessarily as clear as black/white. I've heard many players that had killer rigs with great tone POTENTIAL and it end up sounding like total garbage tone due to their lacklaster "style" and/or inexperience...

I would say it's about 75% in your fingers.. and 25% in your gear. It's a balance between the two but you need both in the end to some extent. Having "bad" gear (in my experience atleast) limits you far less than being a bad player. When I was gigging regularly a few years ago with my TSL100 (which many on this board despise), I would usually have somebody from the crowd comment on how great my tone was. Not saying I'm the best player out there but I'm using that to prove my point it's not just the gear, and it's not just the hands - its about 75% hands 25% gear IMO. You have a chance to make "bad" gear work for you far more than "bad" hands... :lol: :LOL:

To poke some insight into OP's question..

I went to school for electrical engineering so I have taken my fair share of circuit design classes. Guitar amplifier design is different than a normal stereo amplifier design because you're purposely trying to color the input signal with distortion, altered frequency response, phase response, etc..

With that said, the arrangement of capacitors, resistors, inductors, type of tube it's based on, wire length, etc all are factors in determining how the preamp will color the input signal. It is a series of gain stages assembled in series usually with a tone stack (bass mid treble control circuit) placed somewhere in there (often times at the end of the preamp circuit I believe?). Each gain stage has a specific reason why it's there in the circuit and they usually each have pros/cons of using each topology. For example, the first gain stage should usually have a high input impedance and high gain to preserve the input signal (not always the case however).

The main components that affect the frequency response and attack of the amp are: capacitors, inductors (chokes, transformers, etc) and the preamp-tube construction and bias.

I'm not a specialist in guitar amplifier design but I'm just saying in audio amplifier design in general.
 
chunktone":2iey9lit said:
Ventura":2iey9lit said:
Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

Once again, someone mistaking style for tone.
They aren't mutually exclusive. If we define tone as the final "product" that reaches our ears, the way you approach your instrument as well the instrument itself will have an impact every bit as significant as the amp and it's circuit design. After all that, the cab and speakers (and even the room) will also have a huge affect. Add in the rest of the band and things change yet again.

Point being, you can't pin "tone" on just the amp...its the sum of many different variables.
 
Lead work tone is in the fingers. Chording is for the most part going to sound the same whether I'm playing an open A or Clapton is. So when I fire up my SLO, and then move on to the 2205 and I'm just playing chords, pretty sure if EVH were in the room playing the same open chords after me through my gear he's gonna sound the same as me. Or pretty damn close. Fender, Marshall and Soldano as previously mentioned are the main 3 amp designs and everything else has been based on these 3.
 
rupe":oed041jg said:
chunktone":oed041jg said:
Ventura":oed041jg said:
Fingers and expertise. Period.

Eric Clapton will sound like Eric Clapton through a pignose.

Most people won't sound like Eric Clapton through his exact stage rig.

Done.

The tools do have a mega influence, but the cats that use these tools have used them for years and have fostered their own style, nuances, and the like. Nuances to me, are key to a player's tone. Nuances are transferrable to any gear. But nuances are not transferrable to all peoples' fingers.

2 cents.

Once again, someone mistaking style for tone.
They aren't mutually exclusive. If we define tone as the final "product" that reaches our ears, the way you approach your instrument as well the instrument itself will have an impact every bit as significant as the amp and it's circuit design. After all that, the cab and speakers (and even the room) will also have a huge affect. Add in the rest of the band and things change yet again.

Point being, you can't pin "tone" on just the amp...its the sum of many different variables.
Thanks for the rehash... Just logging in to see whaddup :D

Amps have their "signature tones", this is fact - whether it be your JCM800, or an XTC or a VH4 or a IIC or a Nitro, or a Crate, or a Peavey Classic 30.... They will all sound the same when the exact same player plays the same sequence through them, day after day, on the same guitar through the same effects. There are 2 manufacturers I've come to love for their "inherent" tone - Diezel and Bogner. I like the baseline these amps have given me, and from there, it's up to me. How (any of) these engineers and designers develop their circuits with the specific components used is ultimately their "strive" to get a sound they feel confident in marketing. But everything changes once the box (the shipping box) is opened up - is it a telecaster? a les paul? a strat? is it analog stomps or a complete digital MIDI system up front? loop usage? volume levels? venue and room? Attenuator or DI box? Those are the "qualitative" aspects - the only thing "quantitative" is the use of specific components in specific areas of the circuit to achieve the specific tone the designer has in mind.

Tone stacks, location of the preamp EQ within the circuit, voltages/grids, and of course, loads, are all there in the lab of an amp designer... Then there's the quality of components. And the "magic" (hence, "gooping" of some circuits) by which the designers place their components and in what sequence or location in the matrix of the circuit. An amp basically takes YOUR guitar amp voltage coming in from the flux disturbance over the magnetic pickups, which travels down the line (cable) into the input socket. From there? It goes to the preamp section to get EQ'd and inevitably split by a phase inverter, which then sends the signal to the power tubes, where it is seriously amplified and often pushed. The magic occurs from plug in to jack out.... Kinda like asking why a Ferrari has such a killer voice and performance when its basic engine principal and design are the same as a Kia.

Things are just "different" on the inside :thumbsup: :rock:

Off to surf an afternoon set.
Peace M'Dogs....
Mojo :rawk: :rawk: :rawk: :rawk: :rawk: :rawk: :rawk:
 
From the players hands, heart and soul.

next question?

My tone is similar regardless of which guitar I use or what amp or cab I run through. This has been covered numerous times over the years, you can buy every piece of gear that your hero uses but it won't make you sound exactly like your hero because you don't have his hands, pick attack heart and soul ;)
 
ejecta":jhc84398 said:

These two reds look different depending on the colors around them. Still the same color.

Tone is still tone. The tone of the amp is constant. All of the other variables around it are changing. So yes, the perceived tone of the amp mixed with other variables will sound different than the amp alone but a different amp with a different tone will sound different under the same set of variables. I feel like I should write out an equation to explain this better.

The perceived tone is altered by variables but the inherent tone of the amp is not. So tone is not a myth just like color isn't a myth. The physical wave form created by the amp (its tone) is just being colored by other factors ie cabs, room, guitar, etc.
 

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I liked that visual... Nicely played.

Um, no pun intended.
 
mr11":3pjb7fpb said:
ejecta":3pjb7fpb said:

These two reds look different depending on the colors around them. Still the same color.

Tone is still tone. The tone of the amp is constant. All of the other variables around it are changing. So yes, the perceived tone of the amp mixed with other variables will sound different than the amp alone but a different amp with a different tone will sound different under the same set of variables. I feel like I should write out an equation to explain this better.

The perceived tone is altered by variables but the inherent tone of the amp is not. So tone is not a myth just like color isn't a myth. The physical wave form created by the amp (its tone) is just being colored by other factors ie cabs, room, guitar, etc.
Nice little analysis regarding perception :thumbsup:

That said, why would we concern ourselves with anything other than perceived tone, seeing as that is what any of us are actually hearing? What relevance does the "constant tone" have in a musical setting?
 

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