Weird overtone I can't sort out

[7704A]

Thanks for your info, it is helpful. Can you explain this to me in layman's terms? What is the net result of "fairly aggressive low pass"?

It applies an overall EQ curve that looks a bit like this to your signal:

By "fairly aggressive" I just meant that it starts significantly below the average 5kHz cut-off for most guitar speakers. Those EV's are spec'd to end at 7kHz I think.

Here's what things sound like.

This is a demo track off my favorite youtube EV speaker comparision video, and is what sold me on the 12S. It's the high-gain 12S demo:


And here it is again with the low-pass filter in the screenshot applied:


The low-pass I applied isn't quite identical to what the PF350 speaker is doing since there is technically some stuff happening after 3.5kHz, but it is close-ish to chopping off everything after the "usable" range that Eminence gives, with a roughly equal rate of fall-off in the response according to my eyeball math.

Here is the original video (not mine) I pulled the demo tracks from:

 

[VonBonfire]

It applies an overall EQ curve that looks a bit like this to your signal:
View attachment 285524
By "fairly aggressive" I just meant that it starts significantly below the average 5kHz cut-off for most guitar speakers. Those EV's are spec'd to end at 7kHz I think.

Here's what things sound like.

This is a demo track off my favorite youtube EV speaker comparision video, and is what sold me on the 12S. It's the high-gain 12S demo:


And here it is again with the low-pass filter in the screenshot applied:


The low-pass I applied isn't quite identical to what the PF350 speaker is doing since there is technically some stuff happening after 3.5kHz, but it is close-ish to chopping off everything after the "usable" range that Eminence gives, with a roughly equal rate of fall-off in the response according to my eyeball math.

Here is the original video (not mine) I pulled the demo tracks from:

Thank you again for a thorough post. The low pass version of your clip sounded muffled by comparison, however, most of my playing is edge of breakup or just clean so I'm not sure how that would play out on my rig. I am diming volume and treble, mid and bass at minimum. Here's the Paul Franklin demo of the speaker, which is the only demo of it I can find.

 

[JackBootedThug]

Running two twins on 10 and shit sounding funny is kinda like Japanese soldiers in ww2 waiting to hear the ping from a garand going dry….you just fired 8 rounds of 30.06…you are deaf…nobody’s hearing a fucking ping….???

 

[VonBonfire]

Running two twins on 10 and shit sounding funny is kinda like Japanese soldiers in ww2 waiting to hear the ping from a garand going dry….you just fired 8 rounds of 30.06…you are deaf…nobody’s hearing a fucking ping….???

I only run one at a time, the other is just the spare so I don't have to own a modeler for backup, lol.

 

[DanTravis62]

I like celestions with fender style amps too

*Shrug*


I have 2 scumback h75 lds in a cab I use with my Cali tweed

I don't care for the avt speakers at all, from what I recall one went bad in a friends valvestate combo and was making weird overtone noises a few years back

 

[7704A]

Thank you again for a thorough post. The low pass version of your clip sounded muffled by comparison, however, most of my playing is edge of breakup or just clean so I'm not sure how that would play out on my rig. I am diming volume and treble, mid and bass at minimum. Here's the Paul Franklin demo of the speaker, which is the only demo of it I can find.

It's less egregious, but still there. I can here it in the video you linked, though the video doesn't bad. Here are the cleans from the demo I linked before and after the low pass is applied. Also, quick note, I realized I tweaked the dB level of the filter by about a third of a db by mistake in the original post above, so I did the same thing here. Shouldn't be significant I think.

 

[VonBonfire]

It's less egregious, but still there. I can here it in the video you linked, though the video doesn't bad. Here are the cleans from the demo I linked before and after the low pass is applied. Also, quick note, I realized I tweaked the dB level of the filter by about a third of a db by mistake original post above, so I did the same thing here. Shouldn't be significant I think.

Definitely less egregious on the clean examples. Not sure how that low pass would play out in real life since I am maxing the Treble control of my amp's EQ. I generally have enough high end with that arrangement that I sometimes dial back my tone knob on the neck pickup. I'm wondering if Paul Franklin didn't go with that curve due to the steel gutiar having a lot of high end, usually in conjunction with some pretty high output pickups. A Twin is a pretty common amp among steelers, or used to be.

The $650 price tag of two black labels is hard for me to bear right now, plus whatever the amp tech is gonna get me for. I have held out this long because money has been extremely tight for me lately.But I need to figure it out tonight. The EV's are tried and true, but very expensive. I'm wondering if the actual difference would amount to a hill of beans?

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I like celestions with fender style amps too

*Shrug*


I have 2 scumback h75 lds in a cab I use with my Cali tweed

I don't care for the avt speakers at all, from what I recall one went bad in a friends valvestate combo and was making weird overtone noises a few years back

I like h75s in American style amps as well. They sacrifice a little sparkle with clean clean playing, but sound much fuller and more interesting with any hint of grit thrown in

 

[7704A]

Definitely less egregious on the clean examples. Not sure how that low pass would play out in real life since I am maxing the Treble control of my amp's EQ. I generally have enough high end with that arrangement that I sometimes dial back my tone knob on the neck pickup. I'm wondering if Paul Franklin didn't go with that curve due to the steel gutiar having a lot of high end, usually in conjunction with some pretty high output pickups. A Twin is a pretty common amp among steelers, or used to be.

The $650 price tag of two black labels is hard for me to bear right now, plus whatever the amp tech is gonna get me for. I have held out this long because money has been extremely tight for me lately.But I need to figure it out tonight. The EV's are tried and true, but very expensive. I'm wondering if the actual difference would amount to a hill of beans?

It just occurred to me that if you're playing clean you're not hard clipping the power amp. Edge of breakup may start clipping a bit, but not as bad. When you said that you run it on 10 the entire time I thought you meant the volume/gains were all the way up and the power amp was fully over-driven. If that's not the case, you should be able to get away with speakers rated closer to your amp's power output. E.g., the 200W EV Classics, though the PF's are still cheaper new it looks like. I don't know the exact margins we're playing with here though, especially without knowing how much power your amp is putting out. The fact that you may have blown the 150W Force though is curious...

It could just be a hill of beans like you said tone-wise, and finances do sometimes dictate tone even if it's not a hill of beans. Heck, I got 12S's because they were dirt cheap, I didn't find out I preferred them over other speakers until after. Something else to look at are the Eminence Delta speakers. I forget what specific models exactly, but from what I've heard they are similar to EV 12L's but at about half the cost ($160-ish?). I can't comment on them beyond that though. I see some floating around the classifieds fairly regularly in the ballpark of $50, maybe that can tide you over until the PF, EV, or whatever other speakers won't make such a big dent in your wallet. That isn't buying new though, so there is that.

 

[VonBonfire]

It just occurred to me that if you're playing clean you're not hard clipping the power amp. Edge of breakup may start clipping a bit, but not as bad. When you said that you run it on 10 the entire time I thought you meant the volume/gains were all the way up and the power amp was fully over-driven. If that's not the case, you should be able to get away with speakers rated closer to your amp's power output. E.g., the 200W EV Classics, though the PF's are still cheaper new it looks like. I don't know the exact margins we're playing with here though, especially without knowing how much power your amp is putting out. The fact that you may have blown the 150W Force though is curious...

Basically amp on 10 and guitar volume is somewhere between 2 and 8 depending on the level of drive I need so there can definitely be some power amp clipping happening. It just gets fuzzier going past 7 or 8 on the guitars volume where it turns into full on rock guitar tone. I rarely hit 10 on the guitar vol control but the power amp is definitely working hard for a good portion of any gig. It took about five years to destroy the 100 watt Celestions. A set of D-120's was only good for 4-5 months, tops, before they blew.

The Force 12 was used, and almost looks like it had a portion exposed to a light source like a window cause there was some light fading on one side of the cone so true condition isn't really known. It could've been partly blown and I just finished the job or it just could've been tired and died when I put the power to it.

It's buy once cry once, tonight. I hate making these kind of decisions. I'm guessing you would go with the black labels? I'm only wondering if the PF-350 high end rolloff might work good with a Twin set how I run it. That's an expensive decision if it doesn't work out.....

 

[7704A]

guitar volume is somewhere between 2 and 8 depending on the level of drive I need

Ah! That's the bit I was missing.

It's buy once cry once, tonight. I hate making these kind of decisions.

Ditto, I spend a ton of time deliberating usually.

I'm guessing you would go with the black labels?

I'd spend a pile of time deliberating to the extent allowed by the value of my time, with who knows what result. If you put a gun to my head right now though with only those two speaker options I'd personally go black label, though others might say differently and I'm not any sort of authority on this for my opinion to carry much weight. Outside of those constraints though, I'd be surfing the used market for speakers I can examine in person and get at a significant discount. Ideally enough that if they need a re-cone, I don't end up spending more than if I bought them new/excellent condition. Though of course re-cones take time. If it took 5 years to blow the celestions, would it be worth just buying a new pair of those to get you through the next couple months and then saving for a more durable set of speakers and talking to tech's, etc. for their suggestions?

 

[VonBonfire]

I'd spend a pile of time deliberating to the extent allowed by the value of my time, with who knows what result. If you put a gun to my head right now though with only those two speaker options I'd personally go black label, though others might say differently and I'm not any sort of authority on this for my opinion to carry much weight. Outside of those constraints though, I'd be surfing the used market for speakers I can examine in person and get at a significant discount. Ideally enough that if they need a re-cone, I don't end up spending more than if I bought them new/excellent condition. Though of course re-cones take time. If it took 5 years to blow the celestions, would it be worth just buying a new pair of those to get you through the next couple months and then saving for a more durable set of speakers and talking to tech's, etc. for their suggestions?

At this point I'm in the middle of studio work so i might as well spend the dough to get top tone now. I kind of tried to avoid this with the used Force 12 but all it has cost me at this point was more money so screw it, I'm buying something new tonight. I just can't figure out which. I don't have time to fool with reconing due to that and due to gigs coming up. I'm actually lucky I'm not booked this week or I'd have to blow up someone else's amp. The last time I used someone else's amp I wound up owing them a speaker, lol. Maybe I just need to flip a coin. I appreciate all your help and input, that was above and beyond. Thanks man.

 

[7704A]

I appreciate all your help and input, that was above and beyond. Thanks man.

Sure thing, and good luck!