Glad to be an independent thinker

  • Thread starter Thread starter espquade
  • Start date Start date
If said science or subject has "activist groups" and DC lobbyists, the majority of "facts" published will be bullshit.

You don't have to tell me about it, I see it all the time. I'm in the scientific field too, I supervise an chemistry lab. Luckily we're a production lab that just does analysis. We just give the numbers and don't give two shits about the interpretation. I've gone out of my way to make sure what I'm in charge of produces accurate results and quality data. If you don't like the numbers, tuff shit. That's not my job I'm not manipulating data to make you happy.

It's really ironic and interesting; the type of "statistics" that type of Science ™️ creates has a very similar feel to the "Weapons of mass destruction" intelligence reports that the Bush cabinet used to push the iraq war.

Same sort of weasel words, same sorts of tactics, the same type of collated data

credibility.jpg



It's really interesting because the same sorts of misinformation tactics the neocons used for the war machine, are the EXACT same sort of tactics that neolibs use with converged institutions and scientific research to perpetuate misinformation.

It's honestly terrifying how easy these patterns are to spot once you know what to look for; and once you see it, it's EVERYWHERE.
 
You don't have to tell me about it, I see it all the time. I'm in the scientific field too, I supervise an organic chemistry lab. Luckily we're a production lab that just does analysis. We just give the numbers and don't give two shits about the interpretation. I've gone out of my way to make sure what I'm in charge of produces accurate results and quality data. If you don't like the numbers, tuff shit. That's not my job I'm not manipulating data to make you happy.
As in: Certify what can be considered organic?
 
You can't be serious
Actually I am. We can all agree to disagree on topics but does that mean we should all start calling each other names just because we don't agree.

But, I guess if the president can do it constantly then it's ok for everyone to follow his lead right? I don't need to go down that road to get a point across but civility died about 8 years ago didn't it. :dunno:
 
We use an outside IT guy for our computers at work and we were having the AI discussion this morning and 5 years was a time frame that was mentioned more than once. It's going to destroy a lot of professions and people in the process. It might possibly be what causes the end of humans.
Greed and ego kept the technology from being put in check.. and the Genie's not going back in the bottle now.
People can laugh and joke about it all they want but it's heading in that direction.
 
Actually I am. We can all agree to disagree on topics but does that mean we should all start calling each other names just because we don't agree.

But, I guess if the president can do it constantly then it's ok for everyone to follow his lead right? I don't need to go down that road to get a point across but civility died about 8 years ago didn't it. :dunno:
Actually, if I remember correctly, civility started to end somewhere around 2008 :unsure:
People can laugh and joke about it all they want but it's heading in that direction.
I assure you, there's no humor in my post. My view is that AI is way too dangerous for the idiots fully embracing it.
 
Actually I am. We can all agree to disagree on topics but does that mean we should all start calling each other names just because we don't agree.

But, I guess if the president can do it constantly then it's ok for everyone to follow his lead right? I don't need to go down that road to get a point across but civility died about 8 years ago didn't it. :dunno:
You're in an off-topic forum on a guitar gear website.
JDs couch has insulted more people than anyone here in his 4 months on the site. He has insulted veterans, has threatened to call the FBI on fellow members, you name it and he has lied about it. He posts absolute garbage at every turn and always has.
Take a quick run through his posts and then maybe you'll understand why everyone gives him shit.
It is 100% deserved.
Not sure what the president has to do with this, what an odd thing to say?
 
You're in an off-topic forum on a guitar gear website.
JDs couch has insulted more people than anyone here in his 4 months on the site. He has insulted veterans, has threatened to call the FBI on fellow members, you name it and he has lied about it. He posts absolute garbage at every turn and always has.
Take a quick run through his posts and then maybe you'll understand why everyone gives him shit.
It is 100% deserved.
Not sure what the president has to do with this, what an odd thing to say?
The title of this thread should say “Glad to be a woke leftist thinker” :ROFLMAO:
 
"You" didn't do anything

You're literally just prompting AI

Which honestly makes a ton of sense considering how odious and nonsensical most of your posts are; reddit is like 20% of AIs data modeling, and it shows.
1760733883038.jpeg

1760734091777.jpeg
 
You're in an off-topic forum on a guitar gear website.
JDs couch has insulted more people than anyone here in his 4 months on the site. He has insulted veterans, has threatened to call the FBI on fellow members, you name it and he has lied about it. He posts absolute garbage at every turn and always has.
Take a quick run through his posts and then maybe you'll understand why everyone gives him shit.
It is 100% deserved.
Not sure what the president has to do with this, what an odd thing to say?
I admit to the fact I haven't been following his posts so I am not well informed it seems, and my statement about the Pres is just that in our history of Presidents I have never heard another one ever speak to people the way he does and he will call names to anyone he doesn't like and I'm sure this is not news and it is what it is as people in general seem less and less kind to each other these days and it seems to start right at the top and trickle down.

It's the new world order right???
 
I guess it would be great if our leaders tried to unite the country instead of trying to sow division and divide but I guess it's better for them if we are all at each others throats over something as it keeps it much more interesting and keeps there ratings up unfortunately ...
 
I guess it would be great if our leaders tried to unite the country instead of trying to sow division and divide but I guess it's better for them if we are all at each others throats over something as it keeps it much more interesting and keeps there ratings up unfortunately ...
If Americans banded together, they would realize how badly all politicians are screwing us and we would run them all out of office.
 
You're so obsessed with me you made me your sig. Bitchboy

Present your data then Tran.
Don't you feel like a complete dumbfuck having to parrot all Dan's old insults ? It actually makes perfect sense. Everything you post is some stupid propaganda shit from someone else. None of it is predicated on an actual considered opinion. It's literally every leftist position there is. You are a useless dick who's only purpose here is to BE a useless dick.
 
I went through each source you listed and wrote a short, plain-language analysis and rebuttal for each. Where the sources make big claims I point out the key problems (methods, assumptions, missing context) and give the more reliable counterpoints.

1. The House Budget Committee / CIS testimony (Steven Camarota), “The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers” (Jan 11, 2024)
Claim: illegal immigrants are a large net fiscal drain (large per-person lifetime “drain”), big costs for K–12, emergency medical care, welfare, etc. ([budget.house.gov][1])

Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• The analysis treats *gross* program costs as if every dollar is caused by the immigrant rather than asking the correct economic question: what is the *marginal* (additional) cost of one more person? Many costs (schools, hospitals) are only partially variable and are already budgeted.
• The testimony mixes short-term local/state costs (education, shelter) with lifetime federal fiscal estimates without reconciling time horizons; that creates apples-to-oranges comparisons.
• It leans on assumptions about the size and education mix of the undocumented population that other demographers dispute; small changes in those assumptions change results a lot.
• It downplays or omits tax contributions, payroll taxes, and the long-run GDP effects immigrants generate — effects which independent panels show tend to improve federal fiscal balances over long horizons. See National Academies / peer literature. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])

Bottom line: the paper reports useful raw figures, but its headline “drain” conclusion depends on strong assumptions (assigning full program costs, specific education/earnings patterns) and therefore overstates the negative fiscal picture.

2. FAIR / Julie Kirchner testimony / FAIR report (2023)
Claim: illegal immigration costs taxpayers ~$150B (FAIR’s headline) and large per-taxpayer burdens; big K-12 and medical tabulations. ([fairus.org][3])

Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• FAIR is an advocacy organization with a stated mission to reduce immigration; its studies use methodology choices that systematically inflate costs (e.g., attributing full school costs for U.S.-born children of undocumented parents to the parents’ immigration status). That’s a choice, not a neutral fact.
• FAIR’s method often counts *entire* program budgets proportionally instead of estimating the *marginal* share tied to new arrivals, which overstresses the fiscal impact.
• They undercount or under-value taxes and payroll contributions by undocumented households (sales, property avoided, payroll/SS contributions) and omit many dynamic economic benefits. Independent tax estimates (ITEP, American Immigration Council, etc.) show undocumented households pay tens of billions in taxes annually. ([ITEP][4])
• FAIR’s national aggregates obscure that most net costs are at the state/local level (education, emergency services), while federal fiscal effects are often closer to neutral or positive over long periods per independent analyses.

Bottom line: FAIR’s numbers are headline-grabbing but methodologically biased toward overstating costs.

3. Congressional witness packet / Kirchner testimony to House (Hearing document)
Claim: testimony lists education/medical/legal costs and implies large fiscal harm; used in committee rhetoric. ([Congress.gov][5])

Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• Congressional testimony often reflects an advocate’s role — it’s not peer-reviewed research. Treat it as a policy argument, not as neutral evidence.
• The same methodological issues apply: reliance on full cost allocations, selective time windows, and limited accounting for taxes or macro effects.
• The appropriate independent comparator for policymakers is CBO and academic literature; those show the surge raises state/local costs in the short run but that federal effects and long-run economic impacts are more mixed/positive. See CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge. ([Canadian Broadcasting Organization][6])

Bottom line: testimony is useful for showing what advocates want policymakers to focus on, but it isn’t a definitive empirical accounting.

4. AEI / COSM “Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant Households”
Claim: lists federal benefits and presents data implying big federal payouts to illegal-immigrant households. ([Cosm][7])

Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• AEI’s compilation selectively highlights instances where benefits can be paid (or are paid on behalf of U.S.-born children) but doesn’t always show scale, eligibility limits, or legal constraints. For instance, many major federal programs explicitly bar undocumented adults (SNAP, non-emergency Medicaid, ACA subsidies), though U.S.-born children may qualify.
• The piece tends to conflate *possible* benefit receipt with *typical* or *systemic* receipt; that inflates impressions of federal spending.
• AEI (a center-right think tank) provides helpful data points but, like the others, can cherry-pick line items without integrating tax payments, enforcement savings, or dynamic GDP effects that more comprehensive studies include.

Bottom line: AEI provides useful detail but the presentation can exaggerate the net federal fiscal burden when not balanced by taxes paid and long-run effects.

Common methodological issues across these sources (how to rebut them generally)

1. Attribution vs marginal cost: credible fiscal analysis asks what additional spending/tax effects occur from *one more person* or a cohort over time. These documents more often allocate full program budgets pro rata — which overstates costs. (NAS and many academic papers model marginal effects.) ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])

2. Time horizon mismatch: short-term local/state costs (shelter, schooling) are real and concentrated, but long-run federal impacts (taxes, workforce contributions, Social Security) often offset those costs. National Academies and other peer reviews find federal fiscal effects are generally positive over long horizons. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])

3. Taxes and economic contribution undercounted: several independent sources estimate undocumented households paid tens of billions in taxes (federal, state, local). Counting taxes properly reduces or reverses the “net cost” in many credible models. (See ITEP, American Immigration Council). ([ITEP][4])

4. Political/advocacy bias and selective use of data: FAIR and CIS are advocacy organizations with policy aims; AEI is a policy research institute with ideological leanings. Their outputs are useful for highlighting issues but require cross-checking with impartial institutions (CBO, NAS, peer-reviewed studies). ([budget.house.gov][1])

5. Federal vs state/local split: independent work (NAS, CBO) finds costs are concentrated at state/local levels (schools, emergency services). That matters because federal budgets and state budgets behave differently; a national “net drain” claim usually hides this split. CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge finds state/local spending rose faster than state/local tax revenue in 2023 (a short-run net cost at those levels), even as the surge raises GDP and federal revenues in other scenarios. ([Congressional Budget Office][6])


The reports you sent overstate costs because they allocate whole program budgets to undocumented people instead of measuring the *marginal* costs of additional people, rely on advocacy-oriented sources with selective assumptions, and undercount taxes and economic contributions that immigrants provide. Independent, peer-reviewed work (National Academies) and nonpartisan analyses (CBO) show the picture is more complex: the immigration surge does raise short-term state and local costs (education, shelter), but long-run federal fiscal effects and national economic effects are often neutral or positive once taxes, labor market contributions, and GDP effects are counted. If you want, I can produce a short, one-page, plain-language rebuttal that cites a few independent sources (CBO, National Academies, ITEP) and calls out the exact methodological flaws in each paper line-by-line.


[1]: https://budget.house.gov/imo/media/doc/the_cost_of_illegal_immigration_to_taxpayers.pdf "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers"
[2]: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...quences-of-immigration?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration"
[3]: https://www.fairus.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on American Taxpayers 2023 WEB_0.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States ..."
[4]: https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants - ITEP.org"
[5]: https://www.congress.gov/118/meetin...KirchnerJ-20240508.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Cost of the Border Crisis Testimony before the House ..."
[6]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61464?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Effects of the Surge in Immigration on State and Local ..."
[7]: https://cosm.aei.org/key-data-on-fe...-immigrant-households/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant ..."
You absolutely didn't write that you lying piece of shit. You fucking copy and pasted it.
 
Seriously what's with all the insults towards JD? Are we still in grade school or something? I mean how old are you?

Can we possible have a discussion without all the childish behavior?
You just wander in for the first time and start fucking with people for insulting JD ? Why don't you get yourself up to speed before trying to dictate behavior up in this mother fucker, eh ?
 
I guess it would be great if our leaders tried to unite the country instead of trying to sow division and divide but I guess it's better for them if we are all at each others throats over something as it keeps it much more interesting and keeps there ratings up unfortunately ...
Politicians unite the country ? You're fucking kidding right ? Their whole purpose is to keep us divided. Their jobs and possibly their lives depend on it. As long as a significant portion of the US population feels the need to dictate my behavior, tax the fuck out of me and disarm me they can kiss my fucking ass. And any president or politician trying to negotiate with them on those points can go fuck themselves.

Also I don't for a minute believe you are objectively centrist. You can possibly convince me otherwise. Let's hear your positions on all the political topics you can think of.
 
Back
Top