Glad to be an independent thinker

[DanTravis62]

No insult to state facts as many migrant workers do these type of jobs gladly and as such there pay is statically much lower than what causations would require. I'm not stating whether its right or wrong but the fact remains. Construction etc....

I'm not trying to be insulting @espquade

But replace "migrant workers" with "Sub-saharan african slaves" and you have your answer. It's literally the argument that slaveholders and slave traders made between the late 1700s and the Civil War.

"They actually enjoy it, they gladly do the work"

"I'm not making a moral judgement on it, it is what it is"

"They're better off this way than they would be otherwise, and we get to benefit from it this way too"

I'm not saying their situation is the same as african slaves, but the argument you brought up is the exact same argument that was made at the time.

 

[espquade]

I'm not trying to be insulting @espquade

But replace "migrant workers" with "Sub-saharan african slaves" and you have your answer. It's literally the argument that slaveholders and slave traders made between the late 1700s and the Civil War.

"They actually enjoy it, they gladly do the work"

"I'm not making a moral judgement on it, it is what it is"

"They're better off this way than they would be otherwise, and we get to benefit from it this way too"

I'm not saying their situation is the same as african slaves, but the argument you brought up is the exact same argument that was made at the time.

Yes sort of but,
African slaves were not actually paid a wage and most were mistreated and very unhappy and they were slaves owned by white slave owners where I believe migrant workers gladly accept their working wage and pick and choose the jobs they decide to do depending on their skill or did I miss something here?

 

[DanTravis62]

Yes sort of but,
African slaves were not actually paid a wage were they as they were slaves owned by white slave owners where I believe migrant workers gladly accept their working wage and pick and choose the jobs they decide to do depending on their skill or did I miss something here?

That's why i said

I'm not saying their situation is the same as african slaves, but the argument you brought up is the exact same argument that was made at the time.

It's not the same situation, but it's the same argument, which is a bit telling. The point i'm trying to make is a "cui bono" Who benefits?

With slavery, it was the ruling class/elites of the antebellum south.

With illegal immigration, it's the ruling class/elites of post-industrial technocracy USA.

The reason the same argument is made to defend it is really, really telling; because it's an institution that benefits only the ruling classes.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

All of that hemming and hawwing about whether americans will or won't do specific jobs is kind of distracting from the crux of the issue though

If a business has to import what amounts to slaves/indentured servants to do a specific job, then they aren't paying what that job is actually worth in an actually free market. They are bypassing the market to artificially create profit margins for themselves.

It's ironic because the people who are hardline Milton Friedman "the free market is everything" never account for the movement of labor in their supposedly "Free" markets. Funny how it's only a "free" market when it fucks over native citizens.

This just about nails it. The only caveat I'd put on this is there are some instances where domestic workers feel they are entitled and demand more than what the job is worth; i.e. $50/hr to work the fry station at McDonalds. But those situations tend to stem from people who want free shit for no work. Most cases would find a balance between fair wages and domestic labor pool.

 

[DanTravis62]

This just about nails it. The only caveat I'd put on this is there are some instances where domestic workers feel they are entitled and demand more than what the job is worth; i.e. $50/hr to work the fry station at McDonalds. But those situations tend to stem from people who want free shit for no work. Most cases would find a balance between fair wages and domestic labor pool.

Swarming the country with illegals is kind of the "move" from elites/1%ers to combat that 50$/hr fry cook or when unions get out of control (like the teachers unions, which are absolutely insane in america)

The shitty part is BOTH "moves" completely screw over the vast majority of the population

 

[espquade]

Fair enough. Feel free to point. I know I'm being an asshole. But it's warranted in some.

The follow are disqualifiers for any kind of rational political discussion:

Massive spamming of anti-Trump/conservative/religion gifs and memes
The use of the phrases: Orange God, Trump worshipper,right wing,right wing extremist, etc.
Use of the words: Fascist,nazi,racist, etc.

Any poster that is an obvious alt account and/or lies constantly about where they are or who they are.

The people that post with that or have responses like that are clearly here to do nothing but troll, or are so delusional that they don't possess independant or critical thought. So why bother?

I hear what your saying and I certainly have my views on what going on in office today, but I always like to hear and understand others point of views and keep an open mind, but we all should be cautious as to where the information is coming from as it's easy to read or hear an article and believe its the God's honest truth when it's a flat out lie to mislead us and in some cases turn us all against each other in some form or another to benefit them.

 

[DanTravis62]

Also @MadAsAHatter

Note how people like JD have been so propagandized that they support BOTH sides that disenfranchise the average working people

He both "supports" the unfettered immigration that benefits the corporate kleptocracy AND the insane 50$/hr fry cooks and crazy unions (obviously not all unions are crazy, but everyone can admit the crazy ones have crazy political power)


That's honestly the crazy part of this, people like that cant take a step back and go "wait, am I literally just supporting the position that fucks over working people the MOST?"

 

[espquade]

Swarming the country with illegals is kind of the "move" from elites/1%ers to combat that 50$/hr fry cook or when unions get out of control (like the teachers unions, which are absolutely insane in america)

The shitty part is BOTH "moves" completely screw over the vast majority of the population

Rich corporations are just getting richer and unfortunate the more cheaper migrant workers that are no longer here to do their bidding cheaply , they will slowly convert those Jobs to AI in one way or another so they don't have to pay that American worker a good wage/benefits/healthcare/401K etc.

The next 5 years is going to be a scary time in the U.S.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

Swarming the country with illegals is kind of the "move" from elites/1%ers to combat that 50$/hr fry cook or when unions get out of control (like the teachers unions, which are absolutely insane in america)

The shitty part is BOTH "moves" completely screw over the vast majority of the population

Also @MadAsAHatter

Note how people like JD have been so propagandized that they support BOTH sides that disenfranchise the average working people

He both "supports" the unfettered immigration that benefits the corporate kleptocracy AND the insane 50$/hr fry cooks and crazy unions (obviously not all unions are crazy, but everyone can admit the crazy ones have crazy political power)


That's honestly the crazy part of this, people like that cant take a step back and go "wait, am I literally just supporting the position that fucks over working people the MOST?"

It really is nuts how both the problem and solutions tend to fuck over the working people. And somehow people support both at the same time. It makes no sense.

 

[Robostyle]

No, it's just pathetic.

Being from new zealand and being on DJT's nuts 24/7 is what's pathetic.
Or, lying about living in new zealand
Take your pick

 

[Findthetone1]

I hear what your saying and I certainly have my views on what going on in office today, but I always like to hear and understand others point of views and keep an open mind, but we all should be cautious as to where the information is coming from as it's easy to read or hear an article and believe its the God's honest truth when it's a flat out lie to mislead us and in some cases turn us all against each other in some form or another to benefit them.

Most of my posts and opinions come from life experience and use of common sense. We can all sit here and spout facts and figures all day long to try and make the case, but the truth is, they can, and have been manipulated to fit an agenda. The internet is full of bullshit so it's hard to find true facts when you want them. Seriously, who do you trust anymore?

 

[MadAsAHatter]

Rich corporations are just getting richer and unfortunate the more cheaper migrant workers that are no longer here to do their bidding cheaply , they will slowly convert those Jobs to AI in one way or another so they don't have to pay that American worker a good wage/benefits/healthcare/401K etc.

The next 5 years is going to be a scary time in the U.S.

At the same time job markets are constantly changing and workers will need to change with it. The underlying cause may be different, but the trajectory is still similar. Technology will eventually replace some of the workforce. For example, we don't have a room full of people calculating with an abacus, we've innovated to a single person with a fancy calculator.

 

[Robostyle]

Seriously what's with all the insults towards JD? Are we still in grade school or something? I mean how old are you?

Can we possible have a discussion without all the childish behavior?

You can't be serious

 

[Findthetone1]

Rich corporations are just getting richer and unfortunate the more cheaper migrant workers that are no longer here to do their bidding cheaply , they will slowly convert those Jobs to AI in one way or another so they don't have to pay that American worker a good wage/benefits/healthcare/401K etc.

The next 5 years is going to be a scary time in the U.S.

We use an outside IT guy for our computers at work and we were having the AI discussion this morning and 5 years was a time frame that was mentioned more than once. It's going to destroy a lot of professions and people in the process. It might possibly be what causes the end of humans.
Greed and ego kept the technology from being put in check.. and the Genie's not going back in the bottle now.

 

[DanTravis62]

You can't be serious

I'm guessing he doesn't post in OT very often, so doesn't recognize the spam tactics, AI slop, etc as disingenuous as they actually are

 

[MadAsAHatter]

The internet is full of bullshit

Hell, scientific research is full of bullshit as well. I'm not saying all of it is, but for sure hot button topics like climate change is. Once an agenda is attached all credibility goes out the window. Shit has become so polarized you can barely "trust the experts" anymore.

 

[Robostyle]

 

[DanTravis62]

Hell, scientific research is full of bullshit as well. I'm not saying all of it is, but for sure hot button topics like climate change is. Once an agenda is attached all credibility goes out the window. Shit has become so polarized you can barely "trust the experts" anymore.

Dude, I have friends and relatives that work in scientific research, and it's insane. Climate is the worst, but food research is close on it's heels. They call it the "reproducability crisis" or the "credibility crisis", all sorts of different names, but everyone who isn't a JD knows exactly what it is and why it exists.

If your livelihood depends on the data going a certain way, it's going to say what you want it to say. And since the institutions have been completely converged, we all know the end result.

 

[Findthetone1]

Hell, scientific research is full of bullshit as well. I'm not saying all of it is, but for sure hot button topics like climate change is. Once an agenda is attached all credibility goes out the window. Shit has become so polarized you can barely "trust the experts" anymore.

View attachment 420149

If said science or subject has "activist groups" and DC lobbyists, the majority of "facts" published will be bullshit.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

Dude, I have friends and relatives that work in scientific research, and it's insane. Climate is the worst, but food research is close on it's heels. They call it the "reproducability crisis" or the "credibility crisis", all sorts of different names, but everyone who isn't a JD knows exactly what it is and why it exists.

If your livelihood depends on the data going a certain way, it's going to say what you want it to say. And since the institutions have been completely converged, we all know the end result.

You don't have to tell me about it, I see it all the time. I'm in the scientific field too, I supervise an organic chemistry lab. Luckily we're a production lab that just does analysis. We just give the numbers and don't give two shits about the interpretation. I've gone out of my way to make sure what I'm in charge of produces accurate results and quality data. If you don't like the numbers, tuff shit. That's not my job I'm not manipulating data to make you happy.

Edit: On top of that... if I were in research I have enough ethics to let the data guide the conclusions, not force the data to fit preconceived opinions.