2013 ESP Guitar Line Up Preview - New Models here w/ Prices

[HooleyDooley]

There are different aspirational levels. Many younger players do not associate "cheap" and "LTD". Some Japanese associate ESP standard series with "cheap". There are many demographics to satisfy. And many definitions of what "cheap" means to different individuals.

I'd argue that if younger players don't associate "cheap" with LTD, it's because they can't fathom the cost of a "real" ESP, and therefore settle for what is understood to be a 2nd tier product.

You do make a good point about the Japanese market driving what ESP is doing. However, in doing so, the brand essentially dies for me. The guitar I have wanted since I was 16 was an ESP, like I saw Lynch play at the original Monsters of Rock tour. Why I have not bought one yet largely comes down to selection, options, and availability.

If you look at how the Japanese car manufacturers differentiated themselves, they brought in a "standard" line, then an "elite" line with a different name after the standard line had been introduced and built a solid following (Toyota - Lexus). What ESP is trying to do now is convince you that a Kia really is just as good as a BMW. Not happening for anyone who's been around long enough to remember early Kias.

IMHO, Gibson's current chasing the bottom is in part due to them trying to do this same thing about 15 years ago. They tarted up the Epiphones (remember the Elitist)? And continued raising the prices of "real" Gibsons like LP's and ES-335's out of the reach of gigging musicians. The Dot was "good enough" for everyone who needed a Gibsonesque semi. I remember a WSJ article about how Gibson COULD NOT lower prices, as the brand was seen as an "aspirational" brand by the wealthy clientele, and they had to use the Epiphone brand to try to keep lower end market share. It looks like after the 2001 bubble burst and the economy turned way south in 2007, those R9's aren't moving like they used to. People weren't giving big G a chance when it came time for a new guitar because they didn't have the money they used to.

So now Gibson has found ways to cut costs (weight relived? really?) and is trying to rebuild the brand name among folks through more midrange "standard" models. I'm not normally a betting man, but I'd guess that if ESP survives this, we will see a resurgence of ESP standard models, and a decline of the LTD brand within a decade.

I agree with all your points about Gibson, and let us not forget the "only three online dealers allowed to advertise their stock online" debacle of a few years ago that saw the likes of Dave's Guitar and many others drop the brand at the time. But Gibson have made awful decisions at the hands of a CEO with debt and bad decision after bad decision behind them pulling them in all directions. Elitist Epiphones should have continued, pride and ego got in the way of them IMO. But I think ESP Japan's motivation is the pride part without so much of the ego, at least the ego that we in the West identify with.

ESP have made a clear and considered choice with, I've little doubt, their domestic high end dealers and their long-standing relationships with them at the forefront of their thinking.

Consider ESP has seen a brand they haven't even actively promoted outside of Japan end up being sought out by Americans in Edwards. It could be suggested that bringing that name forward rather than promoting LTD Elite would have been wiser. But the Edwards name means little to many teenagers who have aspirations of owning LTDs. It's a balancing act of demographics and trying to work out what might happen in five or ten years.

Toyota is a whole other ball game. A massive company with many people to answer to and even with that in mind they, like Nissan, still do some things differently and offer premiums domestically that you could draw parallels to with the ESP story.

 

[59Bassman]

Consider ESP has seen a brand they haven't even actively promoted outside of Japan end up being sought out by Americans in Edwards. It could be suggested that bringing that name forward rather than promoting LTD Elite would have been wiser. But the Edwards name means little to many teenagers who have aspirations of owning LTDs. It's a balancing act of demographics and trying to work out what might happen in five or ten years.

YES! This +10K. I was thinking about this yesterday, trying to think of a different approach. Folks "in the know" about ESP would have gladly accepted Edwards labeled guitars more readily than an LTD. Trying to convince people that the LTD is now the "real" standard would be like the now-defunct Hamer going Custom Shop only for that brand and trying to get folks to understand that the Slammer line was now the standards. Wouldn't have worked.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This may help them with the Japanese market, but I'd guess that for folks over the age of say 35 (the demographic that can spend a bit more money), few of us are going to shell out stupid money for a custom shop. We'll just go to other makers rather than play an LTD.

 

[locoed]

I'm going to buy one from Brad, if it doesn't feel like a toy and it stays in
Tune, I'm sold.

 

[Mr. Willy]

I wish companies would include the fretboard radius in the spec sheet.

 

[Shiny_Surface]

YES! This +10K. I was thinking about this yesterday, trying to think of a different approach. Folks "in the know" about ESP would have gladly accepted Edwards labeled guitars more readily than an LTD. Trying to convince people that the LTD is now the "real" standard would be like the now-defunct Hamer going Custom Shop only for that brand and trying to get folks to understand that the Slammer line was now the standards. Wouldn't have worked.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This may help them with the Japanese market, but I'd guess that for folks over the age of say 35 (the demographic that can spend a bit more money), few of us are going to shell out stupid money for a custom shop. We'll just go to other makers rather than play an LTD.

I agree most older players won't buy this smokescreen move (imo), it's just so transparent what they are doing even the best PR marketing and spin can't disguise it.

They want the U.S. market to pay more for the budget name on the headstock, trying to dress it up a little to make the horrible tasting pill easier to swallow and hope players will just accept it and purchase.

I have bought a few Edwards though, to me they were the lower priced ESP.

I do think younger players seem more embracing of the LTD name. They don't have a memory of when ESP was a players guitar back in the day and not case queens posed for pictures with their certificates.

 

[nwright]

YES! This +10K. I was thinking about this yesterday, trying to think of a different approach. Folks "in the know" about ESP would have gladly accepted Edwards labeled guitars more readily than an LTD. Trying to convince people that the LTD is now the "real" standard would be like the now-defunct Hamer going Custom Shop only for that brand and trying to get folks to understand that the Slammer line was now the standards. Wouldn't have worked.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This may help them with the Japanese market, but I'd guess that for folks over the age of say 35 (the demographic that can spend a bit more money), few of us are going to shell out stupid money for a custom shop. We'll just go to other makers rather than play an LTD.

I agree most older players won't buy this smokescreen move (imo), it's just so transparent what they are doing even the best PR marketing and spin can't disguise it.

They want the U.S. market to pay more for the budget name on the headstock, trying to dress it up a little to make the horrible tasting pill easier to swallow and hope players will just accept it and purchase.

I have bought a few Edwards though, to me they were the lower priced ESP.

I do think younger players seem more embracing of the LTD name. They don't have a memory of when ESP was a players guitar back in the day and not case queens posed for pictures with their certificates.

Good grief, this doesn't make any sense.

You say it's a smokescreen and that they want the US market to pay more for the budget name on the headstock, but then turn around and say that Edwards were the lower priced ESP...Which is EXACTLY what LTD Elite is.

And the vast majority of players do not frequent boards focused on gear, especially one like this where the demographic skews towards an older crowd who focus or desire higher end instruments.

Hooley Dooley comments IMO are spot on.

And some can say all they want about how younger players do not desire LTD's, but you'd be wrong.

I see more "young players" than I do older ones in the "scene" in my area and surrounding states through playing in my metal band, and I've yet to meet a kid who, upon first asking, what their dream guitar is mention ESP...Even if they are fans of the brand. More often than not, it's a 1000 series LTD. You mention ESP and what it is is so beyond their comprehension (so to speak) that they dont aspire to own something like it....I'd equate a lot of that to the idea that LTD's are more readily available and they see their favorite bands using them that that's what they think is the "best", and probably many have never even seen a "real" ESP (or what was "real" to the larger US market).

 

[Shiny_Surface]

YES! This +10K. I was thinking about this yesterday, trying to think of a different approach. Folks "in the know" about ESP would have gladly accepted Edwards labeled guitars more readily than an LTD. Trying to convince people that the LTD is now the "real" standard would be like the now-defunct Hamer going Custom Shop only for that brand and trying to get folks to understand that the Slammer line was now the standards. Wouldn't have worked.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. This may help them with the Japanese market, but I'd guess that for folks over the age of say 35 (the demographic that can spend a bit more money), few of us are going to shell out stupid money for a custom shop. We'll just go to other makers rather than play an LTD.

I agree most older players won't buy this smokescreen move (imo), it's just so transparent what they are doing even the best PR marketing and spin can't disguise it.

They want the U.S. market to pay more for the budget name on the headstock, trying to dress it up a little to make the horrible tasting pill easier to swallow and hope players will just accept it and purchase.

I have bought a few Edwards though, to me they were the lower priced ESP.

I do think younger players seem more embracing of the LTD name. They don't have a memory of when ESP was a players guitar back in the day and not case queens posed for pictures with their certificates.

Good grief, this doesn't make any sense.

You say it's a smokescreen and that they want the US market to pay more for the budget name on the headstock, but then turn around and say that Edwards were the lower priced ESP...Which is EXACTLY what LTD Elite is.

It is a smokescreen imo. I personally prefer the Edwards brand for lower budget over LTD, even if they were 100% identical. Edwards branding doesn't carry as much negative stigma to me personally.

And the vast majority of players do not frequent boards focused on gear, especially one like this where the demographic skews towards an older crowd who focus or desire higher end instruments.

I would say younger players are more connected to internet message boards than ever before imo, in addition to older players.

Back when I played ESP's they were roughly "comparable" to Jackson. They weren't cheap but acquirable. Younger players these days see them as more equal to Suhr/Anderson it seems.

Hooley Dooley comments IMO are spot on.

I disagree with his arguments personally, but understand the point of view.

And some can say all they want about how younger players do not desire LTD's, but you'd be wrong.

I see more "young players" than I do older ones in the "scene" in my area and surrounding states through playing in my metal band, and I've yet to meet a kid who, upon first asking, what their dream guitar is mention ESP...Even if they are fans of the brand. More often than not, it's a 1000 series LTD. You mention ESP and what it is is so beyond their comprehension (so to speak) that they dont aspire to own something like it....I'd equate a lot of that to the idea that LTD's are more readily available and they see their favorite bands using them that that's what they think is the "best", and probably many have never even seen a "real" ESP (or what was "real" to the larger US market).

Actually in my previous post I agreed about younger players, they don't realize that ESP was a player's guitar back in the day for us older folks, and seemed to have embraced the LTD branding independently from ESP.

The younger demographic will either save or sink this move from ESP imo, time will tell.

 

[JerEvil]

You are all thinking about this like Americans, something which ESP is not.
Which market do you think provides ESP with it's most income from ESP sales? And which market provides the company with the bulk of it's LTD sales?

ESP would feel a strong responsibility to it's domestic dealers affected by the importation of ESP standard models from overseas dealers competing against the more expensive product they sell domestically. ESP themselves to Japanese customers state the standard series are made to a price point for an overseas market and not made to the same standards and with the same level of materials as the domestically available ESPs.

You may scoff at that, but by doing so is too think of it like an American. You can compare ESP to Ibanez, but the latter was an American concoction from the outset, hence why the company makes nothing and outsources everything. They can't be compared.

ESP would not want to be dumbing down their product to satisfy a market increasingly wanting to pay less and less. You hang shit on Gibson for making cheap guitars and whatever else, ESP are avoiding doing that. Gibson are forced to build an inferior product by a consumer wanting to pay less, they haven't used Epiphone to it's full advantage over the past few years.

Jackson make shit import guitars that should be branded something else. PRS are flying very close to the sun with their SE designation, the future for their US sales will be interesting, they should have further separated them.

ESP are extraordinarily proud of their name, and from my time in Japan (just left there actually and headed into Oceania now), pride means as much as profit. If the company is resetting itself China is likely their next focus anyway, luxury goods sales in that country will make everything else look like chump change over the next five to ten years. ESP is making things very clear cut, at some stage it had to be done.

I love nothing more than to hear my countrymen bitch about the price of something (when it's not gone up in years, or even come DOWN in price) and then bitch about quality going down the shitter or, in this case, a company doing something they disagree with. It is you, the consumer, who consistently demands things cheaper and cheaper. If the American market continues to expect no prices to rise and quality to be maintained, ESP have taken a pre-emptive strike and reset everything so that when and if the time comes that the price pressures have grown so much that manufacture needs to be sent off-shore, ESPs name won't be affected, it will always be the Japanese made, premium product. The other names can be shifted around like LTD has been for years, Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.

this IMO is a very intelligent post. Thanks for sharing.

Y'all are nuts. First of all, NO ESP dealer is going to come on a forum and say ESP made a mistake. Biased opinion is biased.

The REST of the world has access to Edwards, Navigator, etc. Yes they have LTD as well but I am also sure we are NOT the only market that regards LTDs as the "Epiphone" of the ESP lineup.

IMHO going ESP Custom, ESP, Edwards would be a better move in the US and abroad. You guys enjoy the LTD Elites. I'd still prefer a Standard series and would gladly pay the price hike on a Custom.

 

[VC4Ever]

this just proves that most are slaves to a brand name. it could be made by the same people, same materials but if the name is changed then look out.

 

[Juggernaut]

I want this!!!!!

 

[sahlomonic]

So... They re-issue the GL-256, throw a different pickguard on it, and now its $50 more than it was 5 years ago. And I can get the non-Lynch, non-distressed version for $150 less ($500 vs $350)???

I'm a huge Lynch fan, but I'm not sure I want to pay $150 more for a beat up looking version of the same guitar.

Also, the 300 series sig LTD guitars go for the same price as a feature-lacking 200 series Lynch LTD.

Sorry for the rant, but I've been less than impressed with Lynch LTD offerings as of late.


On the other hand, the Wilton guitars look pretty cool.

 

[joepete77]

What many brands are doing now is to re-classify what used to be their standard production line as custom shop thereby making customers either pay double(or triple) for a custom shop with similiar quality to what used to be available in production level. Just look at Gibson for example they have custom shop, and they dumbed down their quality standards of their USA line and entry level guitars to epiphone levels at best. It forces serious customers into purchasing custom shop if they want a new guitar and paying more.

 

[bananaladonpcp]

I was going to send you a message yesterday and ask you if you were able to get any of the LTD elite series guitars haha

-Alex

 

[JerEvil]

this just proves that most are slaves to a brand name. it could be made by the same people, same materials but if the name is changed then look out.

Correct

 

[dwizted]

I have played and owned a few LTDs that played just as well as a custom shop guitars. I have also played some custom shop guitars that played like complete dog shit...

 

[gtrlw]

These are guitars. If you like them, buy them. If not, move on. Why the drama?

 

[jabps]

I think you missed the point, and by judging by your one post you work for ESP.

ESP just happens to have great exposure outside Japan.

And why do they have great exposure outside of Japan? Because of the name ESP. As many have tried to point out in this thread and as a former "real" ESP player...LTD will always be considered an inferior product regardless of the quality. Afterall...that is why ESP designed the LTD line...so your now going to market against what you created? Crazy IMO. It may succeed eventually...afterall many of us who actually have owned and know just how good those early real ESP's were are getting long in the tooth but from a business standpoint, de-valuing your brand name is a bad mistake. Again...they are marketing against 2 decades of what they've created. Perception is hard thing to overcome. Insert "New-Coke" here.

 

[glassjaw7]

I hate how close together the pups are on most of those Eclipse models. Never understood why they do that?

 

[ridner]

2013 is gonna be hard on my bank account!!!

 

[King Guitar]

Hey Guys,

I am buying allot of the left over ESP Standard stock of the discontinued ESP models. If you are interested in any of them PM me and I will make you a great deal!

Brad