2013 ESP Guitar Line Up Preview - New Models here w/ Prices

[King Guitar]

There will be some very cool Signature very limited run ESP stuff for NAMM as well.

 

[Deleted member 8761]

What is the difference between the "Extra Thin Flat Neck" and "Extra Thin U Neck"? I can't find any info on their website. How would the flat one compare to say a Jackson soloist or Ibanez RG?

ESP M-II Maple

List $2715
Map $1629

Bolt-On Construction
25.5" Scale
Alder Body
Maple Neck
Maple Neck
42mm Locking Nut (43mm Neck Width)
Extra Thin Flat Neck Contour
24 XJ Frets
Black Nickel Hardware
Gotoh Tuners
Floyd Rose Original Bridge
Seymour Duncan JB (B) / '59 (N) p.u.
Finish: BLK

 

[glpg80]

Thin flat is a D, most ESP's are a U

i custom ordered my MII to have a specific pitch/thickness similar to my Ibanez but still a C.

 

[baron55]

When ESP guitars came out on the scene, the ESP name was on par with the Jackson's at the time through the late 80's through mid 90's. then in the mid 90's, the LTD brand was introduced as the budget level clones of the higher quality ESP line. Since then The LTD line has been regarded the same as the budget low cost-quality line. The LTD's were available just about everywhere except Guitar Center. and they were not good guitars, pretty spotty, some were okay, most were average at best. I remember many times myself and others were excited to go check out and by a ESP guitar from a dealer only to find they stocked LTD.

So now they are trying to say the "New LTD Elites" are the same old ESP and the ESP is a signature high quality guitar. The big problem here is the LTD name will keep people away, doesn't matter if the quality is better, because the price point is on par with he old ESP standard series people will see it is creative marketing to jack up the price. As always perception is reality.

 

[WildNorth]

If I were to get what used to be an ESP standard series I would rather it still say ESP on the headstock as most people will always equate ltd with cheap budget line. Resale of the new ltd will be worse without ESP on the headstock.

I agree. They should have kept "standard" or gone with Edwards. People hunt for Edwards guitars. No one hunts for LTD's. People are willing to pay $150 in shipping to get an Edwards.

This.

They should have NEVER used the LTD brand for the elite series.

Dumb......dumb.

 

[HooleyDooley]

You are all thinking about this like Americans, something which ESP is not.
Which market do you think provides ESP with it's most income from ESP sales? And which market provides the company with the bulk of it's LTD sales?

ESP would feel a strong responsibility to it's domestic dealers affected by the importation of ESP standard models from overseas dealers competing against the more expensive product they sell domestically. ESP themselves to Japanese customers state the standard series are made to a price point for an overseas market and not made to the same standards and with the same level of materials as the domestically available ESPs.

You may scoff at that, but by doing so is too think of it like an American. You can compare ESP to Ibanez, but the latter was an American concoction from the outset, hence why the company makes nothing and outsources everything. They can't be compared.

ESP would not want to be dumbing down their product to satisfy a market increasingly wanting to pay less and less. You hang shit on Gibson for making cheap guitars and whatever else, ESP are avoiding doing that. Gibson are forced to build an inferior product by a consumer wanting to pay less, they haven't used Epiphone to it's full advantage over the past few years.

Jackson make shit import guitars that should be branded something else. PRS are flying very close to the sun with their SE designation, the future for their US sales will be interesting, they should have further separated them.

ESP are extraordinarily proud of their name, and from my time in Japan (just left there actually and headed into Oceania now), pride means as much as profit. If the company is resetting itself China is likely their next focus anyway, luxury goods sales in that country will make everything else look like chump change over the next five to ten years. ESP is making things very clear cut, at some stage it had to be done.

I love nothing more than to hear my countrymen bitch about the price of something (when it's not gone up in years, or even come DOWN in price) and then bitch about quality going down the shitter or, in this case, a company doing something they disagree with. It is you, the consumer, who consistently demands things cheaper and cheaper. If the American market continues to expect no prices to rise and quality to be maintained, ESP have taken a pre-emptive strike and reset everything so that when and if the time comes that the price pressures have grown so much that manufacture needs to be sent off-shore, ESPs name won't be affected, it will always be the Japanese made, premium product. The other names can be shifted around like LTD has been for years, Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.

 

[King Guitar]

You are all thinking about this like Americans, something which ESP is not.
Which market do you think provides ESP with it's most income from ESP sales? And which market provides the company with the bulk of it's LTD sales?

ESP would feel a strong responsibility to it's domestic dealers affected by the importation of ESP standard models from overseas dealers competing against the more expensive product they sell domestically. ESP themselves to Japanese customers state the standard series are made to a price point for an overseas market and not made to the same standards and with the same level of materials as the domestically available ESPs.

You may scoff at that, but by doing so is too think of it like an American. You can compare ESP to Ibanez, but the latter was an American concoction from the outset, hence why the company makes nothing and outsources everything. They can't be compared.

ESP would not want to be dumbing down their product to satisfy a market increasingly wanting to pay less and less. You hang shit on Gibson for making cheap guitars and whatever else, ESP are avoiding doing that. Gibson are forced to build an inferior product by a consumer wanting to pay less, they haven't used Epiphone to it's full advantage over the past few years.

Jackson make shit import guitars that should be branded something else. PRS are flying very close to the sun with their SE designation, the future for their US sales will be interesting, they should have further separated them.

ESP are extraordinarily proud of their name, and from my time in Japan (just left there actually and headed into Oceania now), pride means as much as profit. If the company is resetting itself China is likely their next focus anyway, luxury goods sales in that country will make everything else look like chump change over the next five to ten years. ESP is making things very clear cut, at some stage it had to be done.

I love nothing more than to hear my countrymen bitch about the price of something (when it's not gone up in years, or even come DOWN in price) and then bitch about quality going down the shitter or, in this case, a company doing something they disagree with. It is you, the consumer, who consistently demands things cheaper and cheaper. If the American market continues to expect no prices to rise and quality to be maintained, ESP have taken a pre-emptive strike and reset everything so that when and if the time comes that the price pressures have grown so much that manufacture needs to be sent off-shore, ESPs name won't be affected, it will always be the Japanese made, premium product. The other names can be shifted around like LTD has been for years, Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.

this IMO is a very intelligent post. Thanks for sharing.

 

[baron55]

I think you missed the point, and by judging by your one post you work for ESP.

I didn't see bitching about the price, the point people are trying to make here is that LTD is know as an inferior brand compared to ESP here in the USA, and renaming it to LTD Elite "formerly the higher quality ESP standard brand" but now LTD Elite is a mistake.


What people are saying is the average musician here in the states see's LTD as a mid level guitar 500-800. As they were introduced by....ESP! And that is what they expect. By calling it a LTD Elite and charging the old ESP standard pricing even if it is essentailly the same guitar and quality won't fly.

To the americans the LTD name = budget mid level guitar

And possibly LTD Elite = budget mid level guitar higher priced. It doesn't matter that it is the better made guitars, that will be the perception.

Nothing wrong with seperating the guitar line to differentiate the lineage. I think most would agree it should of been named something else.


Most members on this forum don't buy cheap gear. That is the HC crowd.

Guy here spend big bucks and most would not by a LTD anyway, they would get a ESP.

Yes Americans want cheaper products. But there is a large group who will pay the higher price.

All I see here is we are saying removng the ESP standard line and replacing with LTD Elite even though they are the same guitar confuses the customer base.

 

[HooleyDooley]

I think you missed the point, and by judging by your one post you work for ESP.

I didn't see bitching about the price, the point people are trying to make here is that LTD is know as an inferior brand compared to ESP here in the USA, and renaming it to LTD Elite "formerly the higher quality ESP standard brand" but now LTD Elite is a mistake.


What people are saying is the average musician here in the states see's LTD as a mid level guitar 500-800. As they were introduced by....ESP! And that is what they expect. By calling it a LTD Elite and charging the old ESP standard pricing even if it is essentailly the same guitar and quality won't fly.

To the americans the LTD name = budget mid level guitar

And possibly LTD Elite = budget mid level guitar higher priced. It doesn't matter that it is the better made guitars, that will be the perception.

Nothing wrong with seperating the guitar line to differentiate the lineage. I think most would agree it should of been named something else.


Most members on this forum don't buy cheap gear. That is the HC crowd.

Guy here spend big bucks and most would not by a LTD anyway, they would get a ESP.

Yes Americans want cheaper products. But there is a large group who will pay the higher price.

All I see here is we are saying removng the ESP standard line and replacing with LTD Elite even though they are the same guitar confuses the customer base.

I can assure you, I do not work for ESP, I just have a history of dealing with Japanese companies. I posted here as I've followed the topics elsewhere and see little benefit in posting what I posted to other boards. Here I'd suspect I would get an understanding from those who pursue the higher end product of which I speak.

I think you'll find that in LTD demographics your perception of them is in the minority, rather than the majority. Whilst I understand your perspective, all I am trying to impart is you need to be mindful that ESP is a wholly privately owned Japanese company with great pride in their product. As there are many Japanese guitar manufacturers who have none or next to zero exposure outside Japan. ESP just happens to have great exposure outside Japan.

 

[glpg80]

You are all thinking about this like Americans, something which ESP is not.
Which market do you think provides ESP with it's most income from ESP sales? And which market provides the company with the bulk of it's LTD sales?

ESP would feel a strong responsibility to it's domestic dealers affected by the importation of ESP standard models from overseas dealers competing against the more expensive product they sell domestically. ESP themselves to Japanese customers state the standard series are made to a price point for an overseas market and not made to the same standards and with the same level of materials as the domestically available ESPs.

You may scoff at that, but by doing so is too think of it like an American. You can compare ESP to Ibanez, but the latter was an American concoction from the outset, hence why the company makes nothing and outsources everything. They can't be compared.

ESP would not want to be dumbing down their product to satisfy a market increasingly wanting to pay less and less. You hang shit on Gibson for making cheap guitars and whatever else, ESP are avoiding doing that. Gibson are forced to build an inferior product by a consumer wanting to pay less, they haven't used Epiphone to it's full advantage over the past few years.

Jackson make shit import guitars that should be branded something else. PRS are flying very close to the sun with their SE designation, the future for their US sales will be interesting, they should have further separated them.

ESP are extraordinarily proud of their name, and from my time in Japan (just left there actually and headed into Oceania now), pride means as much as profit. If the company is resetting itself China is likely their next focus anyway, luxury goods sales in that country will make everything else look like chump change over the next five to ten years. ESP is making things very clear cut, at some stage it had to be done.

I love nothing more than to hear my countrymen bitch about the price of something (when it's not gone up in years, or even come DOWN in price) and then bitch about quality going down the shitter or, in this case, a company doing something they disagree with. It is you, the consumer, who consistently demands things cheaper and cheaper. If the American market continues to expect no prices to rise and quality to be maintained, ESP have taken a pre-emptive strike and reset everything so that when and if the time comes that the price pressures have grown so much that manufacture needs to be sent off-shore, ESPs name won't be affected, it will always be the Japanese made, premium product. The other names can be shifted around like LTD has been for years, Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.

this IMO is a very intelligent post. Thanks for sharing.

IMHO it is a load of bullshit and name calling. Penny tight and being aware of capitalism is not the same ballgame. We're not talking $600 guitars here. Custom lines starting at $5,000 and "LTD" quality at $1800. Plenty of users on this forum know what dead wood is, and have played or owned all of the high end custom gear. What you dont have with Suhr and TA is the spoon feeding that ESP has done for years on the Japanese market versus the USA. TA and Suhr treat everyone identical and you pay for the quality regardless of what name you have or where you live. That post sounds like a load of bullshit - nothing more and nothing less.

 

[xXDaveyJonesXx]

Awesome!

Helluva selection.

 

[HooleyDooley]

You are all thinking about this like Americans, something which ESP is not.
Which market do you think provides ESP with it's most income from ESP sales? And which market provides the company with the bulk of it's LTD sales?

ESP would feel a strong responsibility to it's domestic dealers affected by the importation of ESP standard models from overseas dealers competing against the more expensive product they sell domestically. ESP themselves to Japanese customers state the standard series are made to a price point for an overseas market and not made to the same standards and with the same level of materials as the domestically available ESPs.

You may scoff at that, but by doing so is too think of it like an American. You can compare ESP to Ibanez, but the latter was an American concoction from the outset, hence why the company makes nothing and outsources everything. They can't be compared.

ESP would not want to be dumbing down their product to satisfy a market increasingly wanting to pay less and less. You hang shit on Gibson for making cheap guitars and whatever else, ESP are avoiding doing that. Gibson are forced to build an inferior product by a consumer wanting to pay less, they haven't used Epiphone to it's full advantage over the past few years.

Jackson make shit import guitars that should be branded something else. PRS are flying very close to the sun with their SE designation, the future for their US sales will be interesting, they should have further separated them.

ESP are extraordinarily proud of their name, and from my time in Japan (just left there actually and headed into Oceania now), pride means as much as profit. If the company is resetting itself China is likely their next focus anyway, luxury goods sales in that country will make everything else look like chump change over the next five to ten years. ESP is making things very clear cut, at some stage it had to be done.

I love nothing more than to hear my countrymen bitch about the price of something (when it's not gone up in years, or even come DOWN in price) and then bitch about quality going down the shitter or, in this case, a company doing something they disagree with. It is you, the consumer, who consistently demands things cheaper and cheaper. If the American market continues to expect no prices to rise and quality to be maintained, ESP have taken a pre-emptive strike and reset everything so that when and if the time comes that the price pressures have grown so much that manufacture needs to be sent off-shore, ESPs name won't be affected, it will always be the Japanese made, premium product. The other names can be shifted around like LTD has been for years, Korea, Indonesia, China, etc.

this IMO is a very intelligent post. Thanks for sharing.

IMHO it is a load of bullshit and name calling. Penny tight and being aware of capitalism is not the same ballgame. We're not talking $600 guitars here. Custom lines starting at $5,000 and "LTD" quality at $1800. Plenty of users on this forum know what dead wood is, and have played or owned all of the high end custom gear. What you dont have with Suhr and TA is the spoon feeding that ESP has done for years on the Japanese market versus the USA. TA and Suhr treat everyone identical and you pay for the quality regardless of what name you have or where you live. That post sounds like a load of bullshit - nothing more and nothing less.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my post. I fail to comprehend your description of ESP and how they've treated their Japanese market vs their US market. If ESP were to release their entire Custom Shop and Original Series range on the US market how would that benefit them? They'd be ridiculed for many of the shapes and be competing against US domestic makers with lower overheads and a "local" costbase on the models that may be accepted. They would then be accused of being overpriced, but to be priced comparatively to the US equivalents they'd have to lose money on their builds. There is no business sense in employing and training more master luthiers and expanding a production facility only to sell for a loss or a slim margin in an export market.

 

[baron55]

Fair enough, the only reason I suggested you worked for them is you had 1 post count and had one of the few differing opinions.

As for exposure, that is up to the company.

ESP was an aftermarket parts supplier for many years and ddn't make guitars until recently mid 80's and up.

Being a privately held company puts them theoretically in a better position for a better product than the big publically held companies like PRS, Fender, Gibson and others. Who have to make margins for their shareholders. But those companies also have big piggybanks for mass advertisement and media, and endorsements. As well as questionable distrubution agreements witht the big box stores to squeeeze out the smaller companies.

But I dissagree, the LTD brand is known as the lesser brand.

But we will see how this all pans out.

 

[glpg80]

IMHO it is a load of bullshit and name calling. Penny tight and being aware of capitalism is not the same ballgame. We're not talking $600 guitars here. Custom lines starting at $5,000 and "LTD" quality at $1800. Plenty of users on this forum know what dead wood is, and have played or owned all of the high end custom gear. What you dont have with Suhr and TA is the spoon feeding that ESP has done for years on the Japanese market versus the USA. TA and Suhr treat everyone identical and you pay for the quality regardless of what name you have or where you live. That post sounds like a load of bullshit - nothing more and nothing less.

I'm sorry you feel that way about my post. I fail to comprehend your description of ESP and how they've treated their Japanese market vs their US market. If ESP were to release their entire Custom Shop and Original Series range on the US market how would that benefit them? They'd be ridiculed for many of the shapes and be competing against US domestic makers with lower overheads and a "local" costbase on the models that may be accepted. They would then be accused of being overpriced, but to be priced comparatively to the US equivalents they'd have to lose money on their builds. There is no business sense in employing and training more master luthiers and expanding a production facility only to sell for a loss or a slim margin in an export market.

How can you fail to comprehend the difference of the US versus Japanese market when there is a US and Japanese market staring at you in your face? Nothing would change but the fact the availability is there and not pulling teeth to try and get particular models to the US market. The fact i had to custom order a colour change back in 2009 goes to show you just how elitist they are about their brand name - even stamping LTD elite on their previous standard series as another one up - with the same limited access to signature models all over the world.

It has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with limiting the market to what fits them the most. Suhr and TA will respond personally to any question or email you ask and each have produced amazing models for years without a single problem. The chance is there. With ESP it is even a pain to go dealer versus dealer to even attempt to get a price. It is always Dealer --> ESP USA ---> ESP Japan ---> ESP USA ---> dealer ---> user. And this is assuming the translations were correct.

Offer the damn guitars and spread what is truely great about ESP instead of just the opposite.

You hate to compare the two but Ibanez is now doing this exact same thing. J Customs are now available on the open market just as it should. ESP Japan has always been selective - Germany/Europe, USA, Australia, and Japan all getting different options and availability needs - USA usually getting the short stick.

I am tired of seeing them condense themselves into this super/custom market but without the market - and still get away with the same old what is ours is ours and what is yours is ours scheme.

It has nothing to do with "Americans being cheap" and ESP being selective, elitist, and spoon feeding their market.

 

[HooleyDooley]

No problem Baron, I understand why you would feell that way. I thought with my difference of perspective, and as a result, differing opinion, I could contribute to the debate. Not a lot to be gained in debating without differing points of view.

There is no doubting that LTD is perceived as cheaper, by almost all demographics. But the degree of difference is what each demographic has its own take on. Younger players see the more expensive of LTDs as their aspirational guitars, Custom Shop ESPs don't even enter their thought process. Players here are most aware of the things that made ESP as a premium builder. I see no harm (in the longer term especially) than taking the opportunity to differentiate their product offerings by brand now sooner than later when they might be forced offshore. To me it's inevitable that there will have to be off-shore for everything but ESP. Cost pressures in Japanese manufacturing are not going away anytime soon.

 

[baron55]

No problem Baron, I understand why you would feell that way. I thought with my difference of perspective, and as a result, differing opinion, I could contribute to the debate. Not a lot to be gained in debating without differing points of view.

There is no doubting that LTD is perceived as cheaper, by almost all demographics. But the degree of difference is what each demographic has its own take on. Younger players see the more expensive of LTDs as their aspirational guitars, Custom Shop ESPs don't even enter their thought process. Players here are most aware of the things that made ESP as a premium builder. I see no harm (in the longer term especially) than taking the opportunity to differentiate their product offerings by brand now sooner than later when they might be forced offshore. To me it's inevitable that there will have to be off-shore for everything but ESP. Cost pressures in Japanese manufacturing are not going away anytime soon.

You know what is interesting most of all the Japanese car companies have moved production to the states because it costs less. and Embraer the largest aircraft company in Brazil and one of the largest region jet producers is moving a lot of manufacturing to the states too.

 

[HooleyDooley]

No problem Baron, I understand why you would feell that way. I thought with my difference of perspective, and as a result, differing opinion, I could contribute to the debate. Not a lot to be gained in debating without differing points of view.

There is no doubting that LTD is perceived as cheaper, by almost all demographics. But the degree of difference is what each demographic has its own take on. Younger players see the more expensive of LTDs as their aspirational guitars, Custom Shop ESPs don't even enter their thought process. Players here are most aware of the things that made ESP as a premium builder. I see no harm (in the longer term especially) than taking the opportunity to differentiate their product offerings by brand now sooner than later when they might be forced offshore. To me it's inevitable that there will have to be off-shore for everything but ESP. Cost pressures in Japanese manufacturing are not going away anytime soon.

You know what is interesting most of all the Japanese car companies have moved production to the states because it costs less. and Embraer the largest aircraft company in Brazil and one of the largest region jet producers is moving a lot of manufacturing to the states too.

Yes, both of which are publicly listed companies with an obligation to shareholders. Hence why I mentioned the ownership structure of ESP, an important point in the context of my argument.

 

[WildNorth]

Younger players see the more expensive of LTDs as their aspirational guitars

This is where I think you are wrong. Young and old players alike do not aspire to own an LTD. It's not a brand ESP should be building upon. They should have called it something entirely new, to differentiate the line from the "cheapness" that we all associate LTD with.

 

[HooleyDooley]

There are different aspirational levels. Many younger players do not associate "cheap" and "LTD". Some Japanese associate ESP standard series with "cheap". There are many demographics to satisfy. And many definitions of what "cheap" means to different individuals.

 

[59Bassman]

There are different aspirational levels. Many younger players do not associate "cheap" and "LTD". Some Japanese associate ESP standard series with "cheap". There are many demographics to satisfy. And many definitions of what "cheap" means to different individuals.

I'd argue that if younger players don't associate "cheap" with LTD, it's because they can't fathom the cost of a "real" ESP, and therefore settle for what is understood to be a 2nd tier product.

You do make a good point about the Japanese market driving what ESP is doing. However, in doing so, the brand essentially dies for me. The guitar I have wanted since I was 16 was an ESP, like I saw Lynch play at the original Monsters of Rock tour. Why I have not bought one yet largely comes down to selection, options, and availability.

If you look at how the Japanese car manufacturers differentiated themselves, they brought in a "standard" line, then an "elite" line with a different name after the standard line had been introduced and built a solid following (Toyota - Lexus). What ESP is trying to do now is convince you that a Kia really is just as good as a BMW. Not happening for anyone who's been around long enough to remember early Kias.

IMHO, Gibson's current chasing the bottom is in part due to them trying to do this same thing about 15 years ago. They tarted up the Epiphones (remember the Elitist)? And continued raising the prices of "real" Gibsons like LP's and ES-335's out of the reach of gigging musicians. The Dot was "good enough" for everyone who needed a Gibsonesque semi. I remember a WSJ article about how Gibson COULD NOT lower prices, as the brand was seen as an "aspirational" brand by the wealthy clientele, and they had to use the Epiphone brand to try to keep lower end market share. It looks like after the 2001 bubble burst and the economy turned way south in 2007, those R9's aren't moving like they used to. People weren't giving big G a chance when it came time for a new guitar because they didn't have the money they used to.

So now Gibson has found ways to cut costs (weight relived? really?) and is trying to rebuild the brand name among folks through more midrange "standard" models. I'm not normally a betting man, but I'd guess that if ESP survives this, we will see a resurgence of ESP standard models, and a decline of the LTD brand within a decade.