Amps that get lost in the mix....

[stephen sawall]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I play in the college jazz band which has 2, sometimes 3 guitarrists, a bassist, drummer, sax, trumpet and trumbone player, keyboard player and singer.... I know what you mean.

Usually when discussing a band mix (which didn't help fucking anything in my last band) I've said that each guitarrist should boost either low or upper mids so it works well and the bassist can fill in the bass.

You want to check out the THD ~ Flexi 50 and Bivalve. These cut in a mix great. I have never seen a amp cut like the Bivalve. The guys I know that deal with similar situations seem to like them.
The tone controls work different than most .... so do not be afraid to use their full range.
The hardiest part of switching tubes is waiting for it to cool off so you can do it. This and other things about the amp well allow you to shape and customize the sound very easy. They are not high gain and are vintage voiced. You can get liquid and high gain easy with pedals if you want to boost the front end.

A lot of amps above well be a nightmare in that situation.

 

[Tawlks]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I play in the college jazz band which has 2, sometimes 3 guitarrists, a bassist, drummer, sax, trumpet and trumbone player, keyboard player and singer.... I know what you mean.

Usually when discussing a band mix (which didn't help fucking anything in my last band) I've said that each guitarrist should boost either low or upper mids so it works well and the bassist can fill in the bass.

You want to check out the THD ~ Flexi 50 and Bivalve. These cut in a mix great. I have never seen a amp cut like the Bivalve. The guys I know that deal with similar situations seem to like them.
The tone controls work different than most .... so do not be afraid to use their full range.
The hardiest part of switching tubes is waiting for it to cool off so you can do it. This and other things about the amp well allow you to shape and customize the sound very easy. They are not high gain and are vintage voiced. You can get liquid and high gain easy with pedals if you want to boost the front end.

A lot of amps above well be a nightmare in that situation.

Thanks for the advice man, apreciate it. My local guitar store is a THD dealer and they sound GREAT. Also have you heard of Hayden amps? Really small, new company that make a head called Mofo, it's a mini head and it's quite vintage-ey but it's pretty smooth. I like it.

I DI my guitar for jazz... haha. I know it's blasphemy but it saves me using a Marshall MG or bringing an amp to college. Would use my 5150 II though.

 

[AngryGoldfish]

Thanks for the advice man, apreciate it. My local guitar store is a THD dealer and they sound GREAT. Also have you heard of Hayden amps? Really small, new company that make a head called Mofo, it's a mini head and it's quite vintage-ey but it's pretty smooth. I like it.

I DI my guitar for jazz... haha. I know it's blasphemy but it saves me using a Marshall MG or bringing an amp to college. Would use my 5150 II though.

I've heard positive things concerning Hayden. The Mofo is quite popular around all the forums. It's one of those "do everything" amps, I hear. I'd love to have a go on one.

 

[stephen sawall]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I play in the college jazz band which has 2, sometimes 3 guitarrists, a bassist, drummer, sax, trumpet and trumbone player, keyboard player and singer.... I know what you mean.

Usually when discussing a band mix (which didn't help fucking anything in my last band) I've said that each guitarrist should boost either low or upper mids so it works well and the bassist can fill in the bass.

You want to check out the THD ~ Flexi 50 and Bivalve. These cut in a mix great. I have never seen a amp cut like the Bivalve. The guys I know that deal with similar situations seem to like them.
The tone controls work different than most .... so do not be afraid to use their full range.
The hardiest part of switching tubes is waiting for it to cool off so you can do it. This and other things about the amp well allow you to shape and customize the sound very easy. They are not high gain and are vintage voiced. You can get liquid and high gain easy with pedals if you want to boost the front end.

A lot of amps above well be a nightmare in that situation.

Thanks for the advice man, apreciate it. My local guitar store is a THD dealer and they sound GREAT. Also have you heard of Hayden amps? Really small, new company that make a head called Mofo, it's a mini head and it's quite vintage-ey but it's pretty smooth. I like it.

I DI my guitar for jazz... haha. I know it's blasphemy but it saves me using a Marshall MG or bringing an amp to college. Would use my 5150 II though.

I have heard of Hayden but have never played on one.

 

[ttosh]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I like your idea of a second amp that has a more mid range cut for some applications. I was thinking of picking up a Bogner Shiva to see how it cut in the mid range, the 101b is quite dark. I may just pick up Marshall of some kind for those times one amp will not do. I have noticed some mid heavy clean boost pedals can also help in some applications. It is quite strange as one night in one room any amp may cut like a knife, but the very next night even in the same room issues can arise.

This has been a very fun conversation though, I have learned a few things reading through this and that is what I love about this place.

 

[TramplinKids]

My 6505 cuts like a knife with the mids on 0. Whoever said they don't cut, probably hasn't spent anytime with one of them in an actual band setting. My 2 Rectos didn't have a very cutting tone, but I was still heard because I turned them up so loud to get rid of that awful fizz.

I saw Born of Osiris, After the Burial, and All Shall Perish last year and all 3 bands used ENGL Powerballs through Vader cabs. Couldn't hear the guitars at all the entire night.

 

[stephen sawall]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I like your idea of a second amp that has a more mid range cut for some applications. I was thinking of picking up a Bogner Shiva to see how it cut in the mid range, the 101b is quite dark. I may just pick up Marshall of some kind for those times one amp will not do. I have noticed some mid heavy clean boost pedals can also help in some applications. It is quite strange as one night in one room any amp may cut like a knife, but the very next night even in the same room issues can arise.

This has been a very fun conversation though, I have learned a few things reading through this and that is what I love about this place.

I have been mixing amps a long time .... for me the best combination is a modern voiced amp that gets most of its distortion from the preamp ... well the other amp vintage voiced gets most of it's distortion from power amp overdrive. This is the sound that works best for me.

A thing a lot of people do not realize is how much humidity changes sound. I noticed it well recording and using the same rig and getting different results. I am not implying this well cause a amp not to cut.

 

[Anonymous]

I've done sound and have helped some bands get recorded and whether an amp will get lost in the mix depends on mismatches between all the soundscapes of the members of the band. I remember doing sound for a Rush tribute band and the guitarist used an uberschall that simply got lost in the mix with the band. I had to turn the high and low almost off and bump the mids in order to get him heard. He also had too much gain which made it even harder to mix. Clearly, it was not a bad amp, but a mismatch of soundscape. I think this fact is often overlooked...

 

[spawnofthesith]

Blame the rider, not the horse.

I think this sums it up entirely.


Although, sometimes I think you can get away with blaming the other riders and their horses every once in a while. For example you may have one guitarist with a Powerball that cuts fine when dialed in and paired with many other metal amps, but say if it happens to be in a mix with a Splawn or something, the Splawn might cut so much that it overpowers the powerball and everything else

 

[Hacksaw]

I dont get lost in the mix.. I find the offending sound and unplug it LOL! Thats my sound space.. get out!

 

[moltenmetalburn]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I like your idea of a second amp that has a more mid range cut for some applications. I was thinking of picking up a Bogner Shiva to see how it cut in the mid range, the 101b is quite dark. I may just pick up Marshall of some kind for those times one amp will not do. I have noticed some mid heavy clean boost pedals can also help in some applications. It is quite strange as one night in one room any amp may cut like a knife, but the very next night even in the same room issues can arise.

This has been a very fun conversation though, I have learned a few things reading through this and that is what I love about this place.

I have been mixing amps a long time .... for me the best combination is a modern voiced amp that gets most of its distortion from the preamp ... well the other amp vintage voiced gets most of it's distortion from power amp overdrive. This is the sound that works best for me.

A thing a lot of people do not realize is how much humidity changes sound. I noticed it well recording and using the same rig and getting different results. I am not implying this well cause a amp not to cut.

This is very similar to what I just started doing. wondering if you have any phase issues with different gain settings on each amp. I have been using one amp at my typical distortion level and the other with less gain for clarity tucked just below the other.


And the humidity, yes screws with my sound at every summer outdoor gig. I cant imagine a Florida outdoor gig, the sound would just hang in the air.

 

[ttosh]

I dont get lost in the mix.. I find the offending sound and unplug it LOL! Thats my sound space.. get out!

THIS!!

 

[AngryGoldfish]

I have been mixing amps a long time .... for me the best combination is a modern voiced amp that gets most of its distortion from the preamp ... well the other amp vintage voiced gets most of it's distortion from power amp overdrive. This is the sound that works best for me.

+1

Something like a Diezel or a Soldano mixed with a Matamp is something I'm aiming for. You've got the saturation of a tasty preamp and the natural, dark drive of a Matamp.

I've done sound and have helped some bands get recorded and whether an amp will get lost in the mix depends on mismatches between all the soundscapes of the members of the band. I remember doing sound for a Rush tribute band and the guitarist used an uberschall that simply got lost in the mix with the band. I had to turn the high and low almost off and bump the mids in order to get him heard. He also had too much gain which made it even harder to mix. Clearly, it was not a bad amp, but a mismatch of soundscape. I think this fact is often overlooked...

Which makes choosing an ideal amplifier very difficult because, if you're a gigging musician, it is about how it sounds within the bands structure and your live set, not how it sounds in your home or practise space when on your own.

 

[TeleBlaster]

and Kranks are pretty bad.

Don't believe everything you hear.
I dumped my Peavey sponsorship for Krank.
Revolution cuts through waaaaaaay better than my 5150's did, at volume, on stage, live mix. **
Still use the 5150 for home practice, better master volume.
Krank full size heads are not good for bedroom amps. They gotta be at least 4-5 on the Master to sound right.
I think that's where they get a bad reputation, so many teeny bopper wannabe's trying to play a 120 watt head at bedroom volumes.
"How come I don't sound like Dime...??"





**Edit: Not flaming Peavey, their products, nor anyone who uses or prefers 5150 amps. This is my opinion based on what works best for me in a live performance situation.

 

[Hacksaw]

I dont get lost in the mix.. I find the offending sound and unplug it LOL! Thats my sound space.. get out!

THIS!!

You ever notice its usually the bass player crowding the guitar space?

 

[Holy-diver]

framus cobra

*flamesuit*

 

[AngryGoldfish]

framus cobra

*flamesuit*

No man, I completely agree. My old Framus Dragon was awful in the mix of my band. It seemed that I had to alter the settings so much that the amp didn't sound any good at all, just to rid us of the mush. Very disappointed.

 

[Holy-diver]

framus cobra

*flamesuit*

No man, I completely agree. My old Framus Dragon was awful in the mix of my band. It seemed that I had to alter the settings so much that the amp didn't sound any good at all, just to rid us of the mush. Very disappointed.

i was excited to own the cobra after hearing some people talk about it but it seriously was probably my least favorite out of any amp i have owned, right behind my first mark iii that is.

so in retrospect: titan, red stripe mk iii, nitro, xxx, fja 5150, vh140c, single rectifier, ultra plus > framus cobra > no mark mark iii

 

[Tawlks]

and Kranks are pretty bad.

Don't believe everything you hear.
I dumped my Peavey sponsorship for Krank.
Revolution cuts through waaaaaaay better than my 5150's did, at volume, on stage, live mix. **
Still use the 5150 for home practice, better master volume.
Krank full size heads are not good for bedroom amps. They gotta be at least 4-5 on the Master to sound right.
I think that's where they get a bad reputation, so many teeny bopper wannabe's trying to play a 120 watt head at bedroom volumes.
"How come I don't sound like Dime...??"





**Edit: Not flaming Peavey, their products, nor anyone who uses or prefers 5150 amps. This is my opinion based on what works best for me in a live performance situation.

Yeah, that's why I said I've heard haha. I've never had any trouble cutting through in mix. I use a 5150 amp. Krankensteins sound badass from the clips I've heard.

 

[NewWorldMan]

mesa recto 5150s bogners

I'm sure 5150/Recto gets lost in the mix considering it has been used on about 8/10s of every aggressive metal production since their respective releases.

Did you get the memo? 80% of the guitars on all aggressive metal albums are completely inaudible...

You can run your mids low and still be heard. It's the total package (amp, speakers, volume, player, sound guy, etc) that make some amps get lost in the mix. It's not inherently the amp by nature.