Amps that get lost in the mix....

[AngryGoldfish]

Crank the mids, and don't run a ton of bass/low end. You're not the bass player! You can't take your super cool scoopy bedroom tone that has all that low end thump and no mids and make it sound right live without having the sound guy put a ton of mids through FOH and cutting your bass.

Also try to run less gain, it does wonders for projection. I always get amazed at guys who use gates live because they have so much gain and volume - the louder your amp is, the less gain you need. An expensive amp with the gain and master cranked usually sounds like an AM radio in between stations.

Pete

I agree. I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has gigged with the amp many, many times and knows it back to front - and not necessarily Peter Diezel.

Also, I agree about how you can't use the same techinques that make the Herbert sound great at home that you can to make the Herbert sound great live. That's the beauty of it, really - it's versatile enough to suit all stages, whether it be a huge one in front 1000 people, a small one in front 100, or just you in your back garden shed.

 

[bognerluv]

One thing is for sure... The Splawn Quick Rod does not seem to have an issue cutting. It sits in a band mix very well!!

 

[Mailman1971]

My VH4 dont get lost with in the mix a bit. I play it cranked and it is HEARD CLEARLY!

I dont run the gain past noon either. No need. If I want more gain....I go to channel 4 with the gain at noon.
That will handle all the metal you need.

Channel 3 is a great rhythm channel. Gain at about 1 o'clock. Not saturated or compressed.

 

[FourT6and2]

My VH4 dont get lost with in the mix a bit. I play it cranked and it is HEARD CLEARLY!

I dont run the gain past noon either. No need. If I want more gain....I go to channel 4 with the gain at noon.
That will handle all the metal you need.

Channel 3 is a great rhythm channel. Gain at about 1 o'clock. Not saturated or compressed.

Completely agree. Except that the amp is much more compressed than other high-gainers. Or, at least, has the illusion of being so. Not a bad thing, per se. Just sayin'...

 

[fearhk213]

Crank the mids, and don't run a ton of bass/low end. You're not the bass player! You can't take your super cool scoopy bedroom tone that has all that low end thump and no mids and make it sound right live without having the sound guy put a ton of mids through FOH and cutting your bass.

Also try to run less gain, it does wonders for projection. I always get amazed at guys who use gates live because they have so much gain and volume - the louder your amp is, the less gain you need. An expensive amp with the gain and master cranked usually sounds like an AM radio in between stations.

Pete

I agree. I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has gigged with the amp many, many times and knows it back to front - and not necessarily Peter Diezel.

Also, I agree about how you can't use the same techinques that make the Herbert sound great at home that you can to make the Herbert sound great live. That's the beauty of it, really - it's versatile enough to suit all stages, whether it be a huge one in front 1000 people, a small one in front 100, or just you in your back garden shed.

I gigged a Herbert for a good 6 months a few years back in metal band. Maybe not as much as some guys, but I definitely knew how to dial in that amp. I'll go on the record and say I had more problems getting it to cut through live with authority than any amp I've had. I won't say it flat out didn't cut (except one time) cause if you don't scoop the mids and have a PA & sound guy you'll be heard. My issue was it just didn't sound big in a live mix IMO.

The Herbert is a big sounding amp by itself, but.....The Herbert's huge soundscape comes from that lowend extension and not from some huge authoritative mids. That big low end isn't going to matter much when your competing with a bass rig. Then of course the cymbals eat the highs. You need those mids to sound huge and fill in the live mix. IMO, the mids on the Herbert are the weak link and most likely where this problem of not cutting live is coming from.

The Herbert mids just didn't fill in that space "I" want to hear a guitar fill. I found the voicing of the amp seemed scooped with a low setting on the mid-cut and even with the mid-cut off it still seemed notched in the mids. So yeah, I got the Herbert to cut live, I just didn't like that my guitar seemed relatively small cause of the voicing of the mids and the lack of space they filled. And I definitely like mids in my guitar tone, so I wasn't scooping them in the least.

Obviously it works for some people. And like someone said earlier, guitars, pickups, cabs, speakers, etc. are going to play a role. The bass rig will matter and if there's a second guitarist that will to. Even the style of music. I just think when you're dealing with amps like the Herbert (even the Uber, but I find the mids to sit better in a live mix) you're more susceptible to live mix problems cause of the emphasis on the huge low end and the voicing of the mids. At least that's my opinion on the whole "Herbert not cutting" debate

 

[ttosh]

Crank the mids, and don't run a ton of bass/low end. You're not the bass player! You can't take your super cool scoopy bedroom tone that has all that low end thump and no mids and make it sound right live without having the sound guy put a ton of mids through FOH and cutting your bass.

Also try to run less gain, it does wonders for projection. I always get amazed at guys who use gates live because they have so much gain and volume - the louder your amp is, the less gain you need. An expensive amp with the gain and master cranked usually sounds like an AM radio in between stations.

Pete

I agree. I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has gigged with the amp many, many times and knows it back to front - and not necessarily Peter Diezel.

Also, I agree about how you can't use the same techinques that make the Herbert sound great at home that you can to make the Herbert sound great live. That's the beauty of it, really - it's versatile enough to suit all stages, whether it be a huge one in front 1000 people, a small one in front 100, or just you in your back garden shed.

I gigged a Herbert for a good 6 months a few years back in metal band. Maybe not as much as some guys, but I definitely knew how to dial in that amp. I'll go on the record and say I had more problems getting it to cut through live with authority than any amp I've had. I won't say it flat out didn't cut (except one time) cause if you don't scoop the mids and have a PA & sound guy you'll be heard. My issue was it just didn't sound big in a live mix IMO.

The Herbert is a big sounding amp by itself, but.....The Herbert's huge soundscape comes from that lowend extension and not from some huge authoritative mids. That big low end isn't going to matter much when your competing with a bass rig. Then of course the cymbals eat the highs. You need those mids to sound huge and fill in the live mix. IMO, the mids on the Herbert are the weak link and most likely where this problem of not cutting live is coming from.

The Herbert mids just didn't fill in that space "I" want to hear a guitar fill. I found the voicing of the amp seemed scooped with a low setting on the mid-cut and even with the mid-cut off it still seemed notched in the mids. So yeah, I got the Herbert to cut live, I just didn't like that my guitar seemed relatively small cause of the voicing of the mids and the lack of space they filled. And I definitely like mids in my guitar tone, so I wasn't scooping them in the least.

Obviously it works for some people. And like someone said earlier, guitars, pickups, cabs, speakers, etc. are going to play a role. The bass rig will matter and if there's a second guitarist that will to. Even the style of music. I just think when you're dealing with amps like the Herbert (even the Uber, but I find the mids to sit better in a live mix) you're more susceptible to live mix problems cause of the emphasis on the huge low end and the voicing of the mids. At least that's my opinion on the whole "Herbert not cutting" debate

I actually agree very much with what you said above, it makes a lot of sense. What you said is based on facts of playing live and having some time with the amp.

Since this is the internet and everything you read even what I am about to say is to be taken for what it is, just opinion (which are usually based on facts, myth or somebody just stirring the pot). My opinion as a Herbert owner which of course makes me biased is the Herbert cuts through the mix just fine. I base this on the following:

1) I own a Herbert
2) I have listened to the Herbert with amps like Marshalls, Elmwoods, Bogners, etc... Each one has their own thing going on, but the Herbert when setup properly can cut through with no issues.
3) I use V30 speakers which are great speakers IMHO for cutting in a mix.
4) I am just cool. (Again everything you read is based on opinion)

Why do I think people say the Herbert cannot cut in the mix?

1) They never owned one and just want to be cool.
2) They have owned one and the amp they were playing up against was a more mid cutting amp and they did not take time to review the scenario. This can happen with any two amps, and cabinets, pickups, etc come into play. Maybe in a certain scenario the Herbert does not cut as well. You have to ask yourself why, if you love the tone of the Herbert and this applies to any amp what needs done to the overall mix of things that can accommodate this for your band, after all it usually applies to a band, and this is not a pissing contest between one guitar player cutting better than the other it is in a band context and you should be working together. Same thing applies if something is too mid heavy or has too much presence and killing your highs in a band, the reverse of not cutting through, you have to work through these things, review speakers, etc...
3) A lot of players are bedroom players and they are not EQ'n their amp well enough to cut with their stereos.
4) People like to hate on expensive amps and just stir the pot.

Bottom line the Herbert like most amps can cut in a mix. To make a blanket statement that it cannot is unfair and based on one scenario. If I hear things like we tried everything to make it work and could not, well I find this hard to believe. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt that with the tools they had, the ears they were using and the context of their music it just did not work. The scenario I am quoting to sounds like a fair assessment and I agree the Herbert is not a mid strong amp such as a Splawn Quick Rod, etc... They both are enjoyable to play and both give the player a totally different experience IMHO.

The above applies to most amps, not just the Herbert. I can make almost any amp be heard or get lost in a mix. I think the post I am quoting makes a lot of sense and will not disagree the mids on the Herbert is not what makes it sound Huge. The Herbert can cut in a band mix and is a fun amp to play and has a very cool tonal palate to work with. Like any amp it has its strengths and weaknesses, sometimes that is more the players fault than the amp.

Closing Note: Before every gig run an extra mic from your Herbert rig to the PA and tell the sound guy it is your other guitar players mic, unplug his mic to FOH, then put a load box between his head and speaker and push your second out of your Herbert to his speaker. He will sound and play the best he ever has and the crowd and sound guy will love how in sync the two of you are.

 

[AngryGoldfish]

I agree. I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who has gigged with the amp many, many times and knows it back to front - and not necessarily Peter Diezel.

Also, I agree about how you can't use the same techinques that make the Herbert sound great at home that you can to make the Herbert sound great live. That's the beauty of it, really - it's versatile enough to suit all stages, whether it be a huge one in front 1000 people, a small one in front 100, or just you in your back garden shed.

I gigged a Herbert for a good 6 months a few years back in metal band. Maybe not as much as some guys, but I definitely knew how to dial in that amp. I'll go on the record and say I had more problems getting it to cut through live with authority than any amp I've had. I won't say it flat out didn't cut (except one time) cause if you don't scoop the mids and have a PA & sound guy you'll be heard. My issue was it just didn't sound big in a live mix IMO.

The Herbert is a big sounding amp by itself, but.....The Herbert's huge soundscape comes from that lowend extension and not from some huge authoritative mids. That big low end isn't going to matter much when your competing with a bass rig. Then of course the cymbals eat the highs. You need those mids to sound huge and fill in the live mix. IMO, the mids on the Herbert are the weak link and most likely where this problem of not cutting live is coming from.

The Herbert mids just didn't fill in that space "I" want to hear a guitar fill. I found the voicing of the amp seemed scooped with a low setting on the mid-cut and even with the mid-cut off it still seemed notched in the mids. So yeah, I got the Herbert to cut live, I just didn't like that my guitar seemed relatively small cause of the voicing of the mids and the lack of space they filled. And I definitely like mids in my guitar tone, so I wasn't scooping them in the least.

Obviously it works for some people. And like someone said earlier, guitars, pickups, cabs, speakers, etc. are going to play a role. The bass rig will matter and if there's a second guitarist that will to. Even the style of music. I just think when you're dealing with amps like the Herbert (even the Uber, but I find the mids to sit better in a live mix) you're more susceptible to live mix problems cause of the emphasis on the huge low end and the voicing of the mids. At least that's my opinion on the whole "Herbert not cutting" debate

Thanks for responding.

I think you're totally right, in that for some people there is a slight issue; and that issue is unique to each musician; there is no definitive "problem" that permeates throughout everyone's experience. For you, the character of the mids wasn't what you wanted and didn't sit right in YOUR mix. You understand - and have said so - that for someone else's band, that slightly backed-off midrange and general character of the bass actually suits the vibe of the music.

I actually agree very much with what you said above, it makes a lot of sense. What you said is based on facts of playing live and having some time with the amp.

Since this is the internet and everything you read even what I am about to say is to be taken for what it is, just opinion (which are usually based on facts, myth or somebody just stirring the pot). My opinion as a Herbert owner which of course makes me biased is the Herbert cuts through the mix just fine. I base this on the following:

1) I own a Herbert
2) I have listened to the Herbert with amps like Marshalls, Elmwoods, Bogners, etc... Each one has their own thing going on, but the Herbert when setup properly can cut through with no issues.
3) I use V30 speakers which are great speakers IMHO for cutting in a mix.
4) I am just cool. (Again everything you read is based on opinion)

Why do I think people say the Herbert cannot cut in the mix?

1) They never owned one and just want to be cool.
2) They have owned one and the amp they were playing up against was a more mid cutting amp and they did not take time to review the scenario. This can happen with any two amps, and cabinets, pickups, etc come into play. Maybe in a certain scenario the Herbert does not cut as well. You have to ask yourself why, if you love the tone of the Herbert and this applies to any amp what needs done to the overall mix of things that can accommodate this for your band, after all it usually applies to a band, and this is not a pissing contest between one guitar player cutting better than the other it is in a band context and you should be working together. Same thing applies if something is too mid heavy or has too much presence and killing your highs in a band, the reverse of not cutting through, you have to work through these things, review speakers, etc...
3) A lot of players are bedroom players and they are not EQ'n their amp well enough to cut with their stereos.
4) People like to hate on expensive amps and just stir the pot.

Bottom line the Herbert like most amps can cut in a mix. To make a blanket statement that it cannot is unfair and based on one scenario. If I hear things like we tried everything to make it work and could not, well I find this hard to believe. But I will give them the benefit of the doubt that with the tools they had, the ears they were using and the context of their music it just did not work. The scenario I am quoting to sounds like a fair assessment and I agree the Herbert is not a mid strong amp such as a Splawn Quick Rod, etc... They both are enjoyable to play and both give the player a totally different experience IMHO.

The above applies to most amps, not just the Herbert. I can make almost any amp be heard or get lost in a mix. I think the post I am quoting makes a lot of sense and will not disagree the mids on the Herbert is not what makes it sound Huge. The Herbert can cut in a band mix and is a fun amp to play and has a very cool tonal palate to work with. Like any amp it has its strengths and weaknesses, sometimes that is more the players fault than the amp.

Closing Note: Before every gig run an extra mic from your Herbert rig to the PA and tell the sound guy it is your other guitar players mic, unplug his mic to FOH, then put a load box between his head and speaker and push your second out of your Herbert to his speaker. He will sound and play the best he ever has and the crowd and sound guy will love how in sync the two of you are.

I agree with this, as well as the other post. Internet memes are definitely present in the guitar world as well as the funny world.

 

[GlideOn]

In my experience, anything run through a Cab with GT75's gets lost rather easily, unless they are the only guitarist playing...

 

[NITROHOLIC]

Crank the mids, and don't run a ton of bass/low end. You're not the bass player! You can't take your super cool scoopy bedroom tone that has all that low end thump and no mids and make it sound right live without having the sound guy put a ton of mids through FOH and cutting your bass.

Also try to run less gain, it does wonders for projection. I always get amazed at guys who use gates live because they have so much gain and volume - the louder your amp is, the less gain you need. An expensive amp with the gain and master cranked usually sounds like an AM radio in between stations.

Pete

text to the T from the book of doom

 

[Shiny_Surface]

Wow, it's been awhile since I heard so many catch phrases/cliches condensed into one thread.

Bonus laughs for some of the guys who posted that aren't in bands commenting on a cut through the mix thread.

You could tell some comments were a result of defensiveness from owners of amp(s) that were singled out.

 

[kylendm]

In my experience, anything run through a Cab with GT75's gets lost rather easily, unless they are the only guitarist playing...

I agree with this as I do have a cab with T-75s in it but I just got two V30s in the X pattern. Much better at standing out.

Also I like how no one even mentioned the VHT UL. That's just one of those amps that if it did get lost in the mix, it'd be the end of the world as we know it.

 

[Ventura]

Don't want an amp to "get lost in the mix"....??

Reduce the gain, crank the master, increase middles, lower the bass (a bit), and tweak the presence. Biggest non-issue with amps that sound thin or weak is that the player isn't using the middle EQ. Typically, we play to listen to that fat, rich, compressed, gainy sound - but in a band/gig/live situation, middles are your best friend - period.


Good luck,
V.

 

[Sixtonoize]

Also I like how no one even mentioned the VHT UL. That's just one of those amps that if it did get lost in the mix, it'd be the end of the world as we know it.

Truth.

I have to fight with my UL just to have it NOT completely dominate the mix.

 

[glpg80]

notice marshall was also not mentioned by anyone - they cut like a ho knife through butter

 

[stephen sawall]

notice marshall was also not mentioned by anyone - they cut like a ho knife through butter

All but three of my amps(Fender ~ Champ, Mesa ~ Mark IV, Tremoverb) take a lot from the Marshall voicing. I like a lot of the other style amps ..... but for me without this it just is not ..... I have just become very accustom to this flavor.

 

[stephen sawall]

Wow, it's been awhile since I heard so many catch phrases/cliches condensed into one thread.

Bonus laughs for some of the guys who posted that aren't in bands commenting on a cut through the mix thread.

You could tell some comments were a result of defensiveness from owners of amp(s) that were singled out.

I am sure this is what a lot of us are thinking.

 

[Tawlks]

Don't want an amp to "get lost in the mix"....??

Reduce the gain, crank the master, increase middles, lower the bass (a bit), and tweak the presence. Biggest non-issue with amps that sound thin or weak is that the player isn't using the middle EQ. Typically, we play to listen to that fat, rich, compressed, gainy sound - but in a band/gig/live situation, middles are your best friend - period.


Good luck,
V.

I use a 5150 II with the gain just under 5 and the mids usually on about 7, I've never really had a problem cutting through unless the other gutiarrist was being a dick and scooped with tonnes of gain and then tried to be heard, I still cut through.

 

[Tawlks]

notice marshall was also not mentioned by anyone - they cut like a ho knife through butter

My perception is Marshalls are upper mid MACHINES! Correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Beret]

It's all in how you set them up and what you play them through. My Mesa Roadster is totally versatile, an awesome sounding amp, but the lead tone in particular would get lost. I replaced the scooped cabinet with a Port City 2x12 OS and it cuts beautifully. I say that to say your cabinet has a lot to do with how it cuts as well as the amp setup.

~B

 

[killertone]

Any amp can get buried, but few can dominate. It also helps if you aren't an idiot.

As far as the Herbert question, I will know on Thursday.