Amps that get lost in the mix....

[guitarslinger]

in my experience, any rack with a full range, SS power amp.

any preamp
any modeller
any effects

--> SS power amp, not voiced for guitar (QSC, Carvin, Crown, etc)

= massive, lost in the mix fail.

I'm just speaking from experience.

My eyes were opened BIGTIME when I got that Marshall 9100.

 

[AngryGoldfish]

framus cobra

*flamesuit*

No man, I completely agree. My old Framus Dragon was awful in the mix of my band. It seemed that I had to alter the settings so much that the amp didn't sound any good at all, just to rid us of the mush. Very disappointed.

i was excited to own the cobra after hearing some people talk about it but it seriously was probably my least favorite out of any amp i have owned, right behind my first mark iii that is.

so in retrospect: titan, red stripe mk iii, nitro, xxx, fja 5150, vh140c, single rectifier, ultra plus > framus cobra > no mark mark iii

I was excited as well. I had heard nothing but great things from Framus amps users - and I really liked their guitars. Thus, when it was delivered, I was over the moon.
So after quickly setting it up, in awe at the aesthetics, I hit a low tuned, open chord...

... it was just... wrong. The main problem was the fact that I was forced to crank it really, really high to eliminate the fizz and harshness. But I also had to mess with the gain way too much than I was expecting.

On my Soldano my tone is:

Bass - 2 o'clock; Middle - 11 o'clock; Treble - 1 o'clock; Preamp - 11-12 o'clock; Master - 8-9 o'clock; Depth - 2 o'clock; Prescence - 1 o'clock

That's how I get my sludge metal tone that is perfectly suited for articulation and meaty grind.


I wasn't totally discouraged, I hadn't yet heard it in a band situation. When the boyz came round for a jam, we were all buzzin'... but soon to be extremely disappointed: I felt the only way, other than pushing the volume higher than ears can stand for a four jam jession, to hit through my bassist and drummer was to crank the middle and treble and back the bass and depth way off, which is not my tone.

Grrr

I sent it back straight away. Bless Thomann and their 30-day money back guarantee.

 

[pioneerprogress]

this very problem is what solidified in my mind that I am NOT a high-gain guy.
I have not personally owned/tried a high gain amp that cut well with the band while also producing a tone I was really pleased with.
The Krank, the Triple XXX, even the MP-1 on the distortion setting. Heck, I don't even get tones from my HT-dual that cut as well as I'd like when I'm using the red channel. It does better than other high gain tones I've tried, but it's still like I'm sacrificing something when I use it instead of the green channel. It's like once you have a certain amount of gain (read: bees) dialed in, it gets all mushy, no matter which amp it is. Unless it's a "dry" sounding amp.
I guess it ultimately is a matter of context though.

 

[glpg80]

in my experience, any rack with a full range, SS power amp.

any preamp
any modeller
any effects

--> SS power amp, not voiced for guitar (QSC, Carvin, Crown, etc)

= massive, lost in the mix fail.

I'm just speaking from experience.

My eyes were opened BIGTIME when I got that Marshall 9100.

this info is worth gold

 

[guitarslinger]

in my experience, any rack with a full range, SS power amp.

:

this info is worth gold

Could have saved myself a few years of heartache and failz.

 

[.homewrecker.]

I heard the 2203 can get lost in a mix

 

[stephen sawall]

This thread is a lot of fun. ttosh is right .... it's all in the fingers. If your fingers turn down the midrange on your amp there is a very good chance it well not cut.

Just about any amp including Marshall's well have a hard time cutting if you deal with a other guitar player (midrange heavy), keyboards, horns also in the mix. Anyone who has played in a larger funk or R&B band knows what I am talking about.

It is all about fitting in with the other things in the mix, settings on the amp, and how the person does the actual mix at the board. Any of this can cause a problem.

Some amps well cause more problems than others ..... several are mentioned above.

I guess this is why I use two amps most of the time. One with the big huge modern bass and the other being a more vintage sound that cuts in the upper midrange running in parallel.

I like your idea of a second amp that has a more mid range cut for some applications. I was thinking of picking up a Bogner Shiva to see how it cut in the mid range, the 101b is quite dark. I may just pick up Marshall of some kind for those times one amp will not do. I have noticed some mid heavy clean boost pedals can also help in some applications. It is quite strange as one night in one room any amp may cut like a knife, but the very next night even in the same room issues can arise.

This has been a very fun conversation though, I have learned a few things reading through this and that is what I love about this place.

I have been mixing amps a long time .... for me the best combination is a modern voiced amp that gets most of its distortion from the preamp ... well the other amp vintage voiced gets most of it's distortion from power amp overdrive. This is the sound that works best for me.

A thing a lot of people do not realize is how much humidity changes sound. I noticed it well recording and using the same rig and getting different results. I am not implying this well cause a amp not to cut.

This is very similar to what I just started doing. wondering if you have any phase issues with different gain settings on each amp. I have been using one amp at my typical distortion level and the other with less gain for clarity tucked just below the other.


And the humidity, yes screws with my sound at every summer outdoor gig. I cant imagine a Florida outdoor gig, the sound would just hang in the air.

No .... either the amps are in phase or not in my experience. This has not been a problem often.

This is what I do ....
Modern amp .... say three channels ~ clean / crunch / lead.
The other amp vintage .... no master or turned way up / control volume with Hot Plate. Set up for a pretty heavy crunch sound.
I use the volume on my guitar a lot.
The modern amp on all the time and use the loop for effects for this amp.
The vintage amp only is turned on with crunch and lead sounds.
Both amps get front end effects.
The whole thing is controlled with GCX/GCP.

I have about a dozen amps and the rack is set up so I can use one or two amps in any combination depending on my needs.

These days the modern amp is Fryette Sig X and the vintage amp is one of my THD's ~ Series One Plexi (JMP style amp), Bivalve, Flexi 50. I have not been using my other amps much since December when Fryette modified / updated my Sig X.

 

[sebby123]

I dont get lost in the mix.. I find the offending sound and unplug it LOL! Thats my sound space.. get out!

THIS!!

You ever notice its usually the bass player crowding the guitar space?

My bassist loves lots of midrange and i allways tell him to be careful sometimes he adds to much and it just all goes down hill, He started using flats and lowering his midrange which helped the mix dramatically, Damn jazz bassist and there midrange bass tones with no low end

 

[stephen sawall]

I have been mixing amps a long time .... for me the best combination is a modern voiced amp that gets most of its distortion from the preamp ... well the other amp vintage voiced gets most of it's distortion from power amp overdrive. This is the sound that works best for me.

+1

Something like a Diezel or a Soldano mixed with a Matamp is something I'm aiming for. You've got the saturation of a tasty preamp and the natural, dark drive of a Matamp.

I am sure these combination's well work great.

 

[Mizati20]

Don't care what anyone says... I put my Herbert up against a Rectifier, and a JCM 800 and both of them completely murdered the Herbert... this is with the mid cut OFF, the mids DIMED, and the presence very prominent, with the amp running EL34's... and I KNOW how to dial in an amp, and realize it's important to dial in two guitar tones to compliment each other so they aren't fighting for sonic space... but with my Mark V, and now my VH-4, it's just not an issue, period, luckily the Herbert is packed with 180 watts to make up for this

Last time I said this Andy Wood yelled at me

Just my experience, you all know how much I love Diezel... and the Herbert is still one of my favorite amps regardless... but it definitely has a tendency to get a little lost in the mix...

 

[thiswaythatway]

Don't care what anyone says... I put my Herbert up against a Rectifier, and a JCM 800 and both of them completely murdered the Herbert... this is with the mid cut OFF, the mids DIMED, and the presence very prominent, with the amp running EL34's... and I KNOW how to dial in an amp, and realize it's important to dial in two guitar tones to compliment each other so they aren't fighting for sonic space... but with my Mark V, and now my VH-4, it's just not an issue, period, luckily the Herbert is packed with 180 watts to make up for this

Last time I said this Andy Wood yelled at me

Just my experience, you all know how much I love Diezel... and the Herbert is still one of my favorite amps regardless... but it definitely has a tendency to get a little lost in the mix...

Does Andy Wood play with another guitar player in his band? It's a complete different story when you're the only guitar player. But with 2 players things get a little more interesting. I used to use an ADA rig and my friends JCM800 killed me everytime live. Best thing i ever did was to dump the rack. As for the Herbert, i feel it's too refined and not raw enough. I heard one live and it was terrible but i didn't like the player, user error? Still, the best amps I've heard live have mostly been Marshall with a few Boogies as well.

 

[wizardy]

recto on vintage voicing vs modern voicing
recto with scooped mids under 12:00
any modern metal amps played with a bandmate who plays with a metalzone + marshall SS
any amps played in a g12t75 cabs vs a V30 cab.

 

[PBGas]

+1 on the herbert, didnt matter what channel the guy had it on, the rhythm player's JCM800 1x12 combo at the diezel for breakfast.

Yah......a 180watt amp vs. a combo and the combo ate it for breakfast?
sorry....not buying it. I have a old JCM800 Combo, and while it sounds great, no question, it's not eating a full 4x12 + Diezel for breakfast.
If the guitarist took the mid-cut off, then it would be a different story. The more you scoop, the more you get lost in the mix. We all know this.
That combo has an open back so naturally it will project very well, also and spread the sound out. My 800 does this nicely but I barely use it these days.

 

[philb]

For the Mark IV simply increase the 750 hz slider, turn up the presence a bit and you won't get lost.

 

[griffiti]

Lost in the mix? Is there a mix? Oh...wait...there are other guys on stage playing with me! Let me turn my amp down.

 

[mincy]

Don't care what anyone says... I put my Herbert up against a Rectifier, and a JCM 800 and both of them completely murdered the Herbert... this is with the mid cut OFF, the mids DIMED, and the presence very prominent, with the amp running EL34's... and I KNOW how to dial in an amp, and realize it's important to dial in two guitar tones to compliment each other so they aren't fighting for sonic space... but with my Mark V, and now my VH-4, it's just not an issue, period, luckily the Herbert is packed with 180 watts to make up for this

I just don't get it. I really don't. I doubt people are making this up with the consistency it comes up, but I've never had a single issue cutting in a 2 guitar band with my Herbert. My current band I'm playing side by side with a mid boosting fiend running an AC30. This is a guy who blew one of the Blues in his amp from cranking it up and still no issues. Bassist and drummer complain that I bury him and I'm at that notch in the master volume where if I turn it down even a fraction more, the volume level drops to bedroom level. I've honestly had to put a volume pedal in the loop to bring the volume down a notch without loosing all my volume.

Occasionally, I loan the other guitarist my Fender Super and he runs stereo with the AC30 and Super and I don't even have to change my settings at all. As far as EQ, I keep it pretty flat, with a slight boost on the treble and presence and, yes, the mid cut is engaged (very low though, intensity are 9am, level around noon).

Two of the last 3 bands, the other guitarist was running a Rectifier against my Herbert. I had no problems. And it was not about volume either. We'd set all the amps to a reasonable level before each practice and I found my self turning down at times. Both drummers told me they loved the Herbert because no matter how loud or quiet I was playing, they could hear me perfectly. In one band, I'd run my Herbert with a 2x12 loaded with C90s against the other guitarists Dual Rec and Vet30 loaded 4x12 with no problems (not that a 2x12 is that much quieter). And that guy is a serious tweaker and knows how to get just about any sounds he wants out of a Rec. Seriously, I hate Recs and I couldn't believe how good his sounds.

I guess my point is not to say anyone is right or wrong about the Herbert, but I think it comes back to getting the right tool for the job. If the Herbert (or any other amp) isn't cutting, the flaw isn't that it's a bad amp that can't cut in a band mix and that it's more that the Herbert is just not the correct tool for the job. I just hate to see misconceptions about this amp or any other get put out there with such frequency. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "the herbert can't cut in the mix" or "5150s are a can of bees" from someone who never has heard or played one (not trying to imply anything about anyone in this thread with that).

 

[Tawlks]

Don't care what anyone says... I put my Herbert up against a Rectifier, and a JCM 800 and both of them completely murdered the Herbert... this is with the mid cut OFF, the mids DIMED, and the presence very prominent, with the amp running EL34's... and I KNOW how to dial in an amp, and realize it's important to dial in two guitar tones to compliment each other so they aren't fighting for sonic space... but with my Mark V, and now my VH-4, it's just not an issue, period, luckily the Herbert is packed with 180 watts to make up for this

Last time I said this Andy Wood yelled at me

Just my experience, you all know how much I love Diezel... and the Herbert is still one of my favorite amps regardless... but it definitely has a tendency to get a little lost in the mix...

But doesn't the Recto have an active EQ? Making the range of boost/cut for the mids massive? That's not really a fair comparreson for that reason.

 

[Sixtonoize]

But doesn't the Recto have an active EQ?

Nope.

 

[edgeofdarkness]

I like your idea of a second amp that has a more mid range cut for some applications. I was thinking of picking up a Bogner Shiva to see how it cut in the mid range, the 101b is quite dark.

This has been a very fun conversation though, I have learned a few things reading through this and that is what I love about this place.

umm Turn the presence up.

 

[edthecat]

All amps get lost in the mix if not set up right with the rest of the mix and instrument. I also feel not all amps can be set up well with all styles and mixes.
Traditionally the guitar has been a upper midrange instrument. The amps that do not cut in the upper midrange are going to cause the most problems.
If your amp is not cutting the mix do not be afraid to dime the midrange. It may not give the best bedroom or recorded sound, but this is how most people well mix you live.
If there is no other midrange instruments you might get away with cutting midrange.

THIS.