Bugera TriRec Vs. Mesa Dual Recto (Video)

[metalmaniac93]

Bugera sounds like unemployed Americans and Chinese theft.

Sounds very close. But counterfeits are designed to sound close.

As destroyed as the economy is, the huge number of unemployed or underemployed people that are out there...

It is amazing Americans buy this stuff. It is a pretty poison. And stealing downloaded music did not hurt any musicians either.

It doesn't matter how great of a counterfeit it is, it is like a cancer that Americans pay money to get.

If you don't understand economics well enough to understand how this hurts our economy, remember that you don't have to understand the nuclear bomb works for it to kill you.

I like the way you think.

If Mesa moved manufacturing to China people would scream loudly, but when the Chinese counterfeit the design and undercut Mesa people rejoice at the opportunity to slit their own throats.

Well said!!! I agree 100%!!!

 

[metalmaniac93]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Just want to chime and say I agree with all of the logic you've put forth in this thread. Furthermore, in the interest of a free market and capitalism, as Japan did 30-40 years ago, maybe China can do now: put forth a level of quality that forces American manufacturers to reconsider how they do things, and attain higher quality principles (in the quantitative sense) than what we achieve now. Deming's work in Japan changed the game...

But I digress. I'd have to ask a few questions for those of you deriding the fact that Bugera makes their product in China:

1) Do you own a vehicle? If so, where was it made? What country is the manufacturer from?
2) Do you drink beer? Is it all local craft beer? Because if it's standard macro, you're either supporting Belgium/Brazil (All Anheuser-Busch Inbev products), England (SABMiller, Diageo, Guinness), Canada (Molson Coors), etc. If you drink wine, is it all US wine? Liquor all US liquor (keep in mind that, excepting small scale distillers, the only booze of real quality in made in this country is Kentucky and Tennessee Whiskey).
3) Are all of your guitars American made? Amps? Own a Ceriatone or GAS for one? Own a Marshall? The first Marshall amps were copies of Fender amps, remember? How about a Diezel or Engl?

You don't literally have to answer those questions. But there's a point I'm trying to get across. We live in a global economy with global competition. It's not like Mesa is doing badly. Bugera's target market isn't going to buy Mesa in the first place. It's mainly for either the international market or the beginner/intermediate budget market here. In fact, Mesa isn't the company that should be worried. Peavey is. And let's not forget that the XXX, down to the looks, was supposed to be a Recto knockoff, so this is a taste of their own medicine.

People just aren't going to proudly use Bugera anytime, if ever instead of a Mesa. The only thing I could concievably see happening is, like the parent company has done with it's pro audio side, you could see Behringer buy out another more heralded guitar amp manufacturer and start using their schematics, parts, what have you. They bought Midas not too long ago and came out with a very highly regarded digital board, the X32. Anyone who does live sound knows Midas is top notch... and lots of engineers are GASsing for this board, but musicians haven't caught up yet. They see Behringer on the gear list and they get worried, especially when it's such an integral part of the rig like the console. But it's a really good sounding, good functioning board.

When the US starts making better beer than Belgium then I will start drinking American!!! I actually drink American craft beers most of the time and also Belgian and German beers. Guinness is Irish by the way!!! Nothing better than Belgian Trappist beer!!!

 

[borninwinter]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

As I understand it, the Recto was based on the SLO. They may have made changes to the design, but that's different that being a super unique innovator. And, as some else noted, Randall Smith did start by modding Fenders and putting "Boogie" on them. When you're dealing with electronic everyone builds on what has been done before. That's just the nature of it.

Mesa can't sue Bugera cause they haven't done anything wrong as far as the law goes. Producing an amp using Mesa's name and trademarks is illegal. Producing an amp with a similar name, sound, and look, but with "Bugera" on the front is completely within the law. Inexpensive knockoffs of popular products happens all the time. It's the American way.

If you don't like the US supporting China, you should consider working to convince your government not to borrow billions from that country each and every month instead of worrying about some low rent amp manufacturer.
http://bonds.about.com/od/bondinvesting ... nadebt.htm

Your amp purchase has no political significance, sorry. And, really, Mesa is doing just fine, it doesn't need your help either.

 

[ridner]

sounds pretty close - nice clip. I owned the Bugera version of the 5150 or 6505 - I forget which...it sounded pretty spot on as well!

 

[fluff191]

Now this thread has got me thinking about beer.


Mmmmmmmm IPA.

 

[Shiny_Surface]

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

It's pretty funny seeing the sanctimonious preaching against Bugera. Mesa isn't losing any sales to Bugera, Bugera is targeting a lower price demographic Mesa deliberately chose not to fill.

There does seem to be a double standard imo where it's ok to have boutique clones but not ok for lower market offerings.

In either case they are in different market segments above and below Mesa's target demographic.

 

[Chris6870]

Mesa can't sue Bugera cause they haven't done anything wrong as far as the law goes. Producing an amp using Mesa's name and trademarks is illegal. Producing an amp with a similar name, sound, and look, but with "Bugera" on the front is completely within the law. Inexpensive knockoffs of popular products happens all the time. It's the American way.

First of all anyone can sue anyone over anything. Whether it holds up is another story. It's usually the battle that does the damage,not the outcome. It would be up to a court to decide if any patents were infringed on and if TriRec is close enough to Triple Rectifier to have a case. There is something called the Doctrine of Equivalents, which means the invention is so close to the claims described in a patent that a court will find it to be substantially similar and therefore infringing.

 

[bubbastain]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Just want to chime and say I agree with all of the logic you've put forth in this thread. Furthermore, in the interest of a free market and capitalism, as Japan did 30-40 years ago, maybe China can do now: put forth a level of quality that forces American manufacturers to reconsider how they do things, and attain higher quality principles (in the quantitative sense) than what we achieve now. Deming's work in Japan changed the game...

But I digress. I'd have to ask a few questions for those of you deriding the fact that Bugera makes their product in China:

1) Do you own a vehicle? If so, where was it made? What country is the manufacturer from?
2) Do you drink beer? Is it all local craft beer? Because if it's standard macro, you're either supporting Belgium/Brazil (All Anheuser-Busch Inbev products), England (SABMiller, Diageo, Guinness), Canada (Molson Coors), etc. If you drink wine, is it all US wine? Liquor all US liquor (keep in mind that, excepting small scale distillers, the only booze of real quality in made in this country is Kentucky and Tennessee Whiskey).
3) Are all of your guitars American made? Amps? Own a Ceriatone or GAS for one? Own a Marshall? The first Marshall amps were copies of Fender amps, remember? How about a Diezel or Engl?

You don't literally have to answer those questions. But there's a point I'm trying to get across. We live in a global economy with global competition. It's not like Mesa is doing badly. Bugera's target market isn't going to buy Mesa in the first place. It's mainly for either the international market or the beginner/intermediate budget market here. In fact, Mesa isn't the company that should be worried. Peavey is. And let's not forget that the XXX, down to the looks, was supposed to be a Recto knockoff, so this is a taste of their own medicine.

People just aren't going to proudly use Bugera anytime, if ever instead of a Mesa. The only thing I could concievably see happening is, like the parent company has done with it's pro audio side, you could see Behringer buy out another more heralded guitar amp manufacturer and start using their schematics, parts, what have you. They bought Midas not too long ago and came out with a very highly regarded digital board, the X32. Anyone who does live sound knows Midas is top notch... and lots of engineers are GASsing for this board, but musicians haven't caught up yet. They see Behringer on the gear list and they get worried, especially when it's such an integral part of the rig like the console. But it's a really good sounding, good functioning board.

Very well said. I am glad that Bugera did not make the Tri Rec look exactly like the Mesa as was the case with their 6260 and a couple of others. It has it's own look. I wish they would give them original names also. Yes, they pretty much copied other amps, but also added to it. Even their 6260 series has the ability without modification to accept 6L6s or EL34s. So it really is in the same ballpark as Ceriatone and some others including the whole modded Marshall industry. I mean Randalls MTS line pretty much covers/copies every amp out there right? They even said in one of their videos that the modules are based on the actual original circuits.

Made in China? Not much isn't. Doesn't bother me as long as QC is good. Lot's of great foreign products with excellent QC as well as foreign and Domestic products with shit QC. Remember where these new Randall are being made? Yup, China and I am glad they are because it will make them way more accessible to players with shallow pockets like myself. I believe design and QC is way more important than country of origin.
As far as the original comparison vid goes, I say well done and yeah I liked the Bugera better. I actually told Fluff in person that out of all his videos I liked the Bugera 6260 tone probably the best. The comparison was done properly also. Everything else being the same except the actual amp. This is what each amp sounds like with the same speakers and same settings. Not necessarily how the amp sounds best(which is totally subjective anyways). To change ANYTHING other than what is being two or more products are be compared to each other would then make it one specific signal chain compared to another.

Anyways, another cool video by Fluff.

 

[borninwinter]

Mesa can't sue Bugera cause they haven't done anything wrong as far as the law goes. Producing an amp using Mesa's name and trademarks is illegal. Producing an amp with a similar name, sound, and look, but with "Bugera" on the front is completely within the law. Inexpensive knockoffs of popular products happens all the time. It's the American way.

First of all anyone can sue anyone over anything. Whether it holds up is another story. It's usually the battle that does the damage,not the outcome. It would be up to a court to decide if any patents were infringed on and if TriRec is close enough to Triple Rectifier to have a case. There is something called the Doctrine of Equivalents, which means the invention is so close to the claims described in a patent that a court will find it to be substantially similar and therefore infringing.

I know. It won't hold up is what I'm saying. This thread demonstrates that no one believes they're the same amp or even an equivalent. Mesa has penty of money to sue if they want to. They're not. That should tell you something.

 

[TheMagicEight]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Are you saying those companies aren't original? Which design did Splawn COPY? Of course they're all Marshall-based, but they're not taking a 2203 circuit and putting their badge on it. It's a new design, for the sake of design. Bugera is for the sake of cheapness.

Ceriatone? Their kit business isn't even in making amplifiers. They package these kits so we can build them. Sure, they sell complete amps, but IIRC they're unique designs that you can't get anywhere else. And Metro? Tell me you can find a NEW Marshall anywhere near the quality of one of Metro's amps....

Look, if you want to support sweat shop labor and intellectual theft, it's your decision. I'm choosing not to.

 

[borninwinter]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Are you saying those companies aren't original? Which design did Splawn COPY? Of course they're all Marshall-based, but they're not taking a 2203 circuit and putting their badge on it. It's a new design, for the sake of design. Bugera is for the sake of cheapness.

I wouldn't call taking a Marshall circuit and tweaking it a "new design." And if they did it "for the sake of design" why aren't they giving their amps and mods away for free? Also, for people that don't have as much money as you do, lowering the price is an improvement - just not the improvement you're looking for...

 

[borninwinter]

Look, if you want to support sweat shop labor and intellectual theft, it's your decision. I'm choosing not to.

I assume that your computer, phone, TV, DVD player, clothes, car, and appliances are not made in China or using Chinese parts.

 

[fluff191]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Are you saying those companies aren't original? Which design did Splawn COPY? Of course they're all Marshall-based, but they're not taking a 2203 circuit and putting their badge on it. It's a new design, for the sake of design. Bugera is for the sake of cheapness.

Ceriatone? Their kit business isn't even in making amplifiers. They package these kits so we can build them. Sure, they sell complete amps, but IIRC they're unique designs that you can't get anywhere else. And Metro? Tell me you can find a NEW Marshall anywhere near the quality of one of Metro's amps....

Look, if you want to support sweat shop labor and intellectual theft, it's your decision. I'm choosing not to.

haha so what is this about then? Are we talking politics or amp design? If Soldano, Bogner and Splawn arent exact copies then neither is Bugera in this instance. The Recto doesnt have individual channel reverb, power soak, built-in boost or per-tube auto bias.

I bet you are wearing Nike's right now, huh?

 

[dooredge]

This whole arguement is borderline retarded.

I'm assuming Bugera is shooting at the 20'ish and under crowd. Any 25'ish & up guitarist who's semi-mature with a decent paying job will see a greater value in saving for a Mesa. Agan, my assumptions.

That said, I can guarantee the 20 year old kid who has limited funds would love to play a Mesa, but will buy the Bugera instead. Most 20 year olds that I know aren't taking country of origin, sweatshops, patents, design similarities, yadda yadda yadda into consideration when making gear purchases. They aren't taking into consideration the global economy but rather their personal economy. Short-sighted perhaps, but you and I were no different at that age (unless your parents were activist hippies...damn hippies).

Here are the two factors most people looking @ Bugera are considering:
A) Does it sound kick ass?
B) Can I afford it?

It's really that simple. Don't buy it if you don't like it. And if you do, enjoy it!

EDIT: Also, one would guess the Bugera folks put the TriRec design through a thorough vetting to insure they wouldn't be opening themselves up to legal action. However, if they didn't and something like that happens shame on them.

 

[fluff191]

Couldnt agree more.

 

[LP Freak]

What bugs me is guys go thru the trouble of making some killer clips around here and this is what they get.

 

[fluff191]

What bugs me is guys go thru the trouble of making some killer clips around here and this is what they get.

Yeah

 

[dirtyfunkg]

You don't see Mesa or any of the other contemporary builders taking an amp design and putting their name on it. That's not how Mesa started and there's really no comparison. They make something unique. They're INNOVATORS. There's a big difference.
.

So Splawn, Freidman, Soldano and those kinds of companies are original? And you are going to tell me those designs are totally original?

It blows my mind you guys get so defensive about a company like Bugera but a company like Ceriatone that's sells exact copies of amps as a kit are just fine.

Seems to me there is a huge double standard here. Maybe if they charged a load more money and said they were based in America it would be ok right?

Just want to chime and say I agree with all of the logic you've put forth in this thread. Furthermore, in the interest of a free market and capitalism, as Japan did 30-40 years ago, maybe China can do now: put forth a level of quality that forces American manufacturers to reconsider how they do things, and attain higher quality principles (in the quantitative sense) than what we achieve now. Deming's work in Japan changed the game...

But I digress. I'd have to ask a few questions for those of you deriding the fact that Bugera makes their product in China:

1) Do you own a vehicle? If so, where was it made? What country is the manufacturer from?
2) Do you drink beer? Is it all local craft beer? Because if it's standard macro, you're either supporting Belgium/Brazil (All Anheuser-Busch Inbev products), England (SABMiller, Diageo, Guinness), Canada (Molson Coors), etc. If you drink wine, is it all US wine? Liquor all US liquor (keep in mind that, excepting small scale distillers, the only booze of real quality in made in this country is Kentucky and Tennessee Whiskey).
3) Are all of your guitars American made? Amps? Own a Ceriatone or GAS for one? Own a Marshall? The first Marshall amps were copies of Fender amps, remember? How about a Diezel or Engl?

You don't literally have to answer those questions. But there's a point I'm trying to get across. We live in a global economy with global competition. It's not like Mesa is doing badly. Bugera's target market isn't going to buy Mesa in the first place. It's mainly for either the international market or the beginner/intermediate budget market here. In fact, Mesa isn't the company that should be worried. Peavey is. And let's not forget that the XXX, down to the looks, was supposed to be a Recto knockoff, so this is a taste of their own medicine.

People just aren't going to proudly use Bugera anytime, if ever instead of a Mesa. The only thing I could concievably see happening is, like the parent company has done with it's pro audio side, you could see Behringer buy out another more heralded guitar amp manufacturer and start using their schematics, parts, what have you. They bought Midas not too long ago and came out with a very highly regarded digital board, the X32. Anyone who does live sound knows Midas is top notch... and lots of engineers are GASsing for this board, but musicians haven't caught up yet. They see Behringer on the gear list and they get worried, especially when it's such an integral part of the rig like the console. But it's a really good sounding, good functioning board.

When the US starts making better beer than Belgium then I will start drinking American!!! I actually drink American craft beers most of the time and also Belgian and German beers. Guinness is Irish by the way!!! Nothing better than Belgian Trappist beer!!!

Speaking as a member of the American craft beer community, I think Americans have gotten down the Belgian styles pretty well. Goose Island, Ommegang, Bruery, etc., put out amazing products though, ironically, Goose Island is now Belgian owned.

And Guiness is owned by Diageo, therefore it's English. Sorry to burst that bubble. So is Smithwick's, by the way.

 

[billboogie]

Just a little curious about this so I need to know.....
I own a British tube amp that was assembled in China and purchased from a dealer who is an American Veteran.
Am I good?????

 

[dirtyfunkg]

Yup. all good.

'Murica!

Fluff, by the way, sorry for derailing your thread. Thanks for putting those clips up. I'll stop deviating now.

Thanks.