Checking out, It's been good gents (PSA on Savageriffer)

[scottosan]

It's been a good 11 years gents, but this place has gone to utter shit. The inmates run the asylum and the mods just let it happen. You can' go a day without witness complete BS from the same folks and quite honestly has worn thin for a long time. Thanks to all of the good folks that have helped me out through the years.

In short Dude lost his shit when the "fine" side adjustment nut on his "incredible" Warmoth broke, but now that he's selling it feels that it's inconsequential because it's a convenience feature. Well, even if the guitar can still be adjust bey removing the neck and using the main adjustment doesn't negate the fact that the side adjustment is still broken. Perhaps the days of integrity and disclosure are a thing of the past for some. It's a wonder why someone would have issue after issue with online transactions when they have their own definition of things and decide what is consequential when things do not function as designed on their gear.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=191696&p=2137363&hilit=Warmoth#p2137363

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192758

SR,

If a guitar has a function whether designed out of convenience or necessity it's not up to you to decide it's inconsequential. Anyone with integrity would disclose a known issue with something they are sell IMHO. The inconsequential function was obviously traumatic enough for you to vent about in the original thread, so wouldn't you think it may be equally important to a potential buyer. This has nothing to do with looking for an opportunity to attack you or being a dick. I have integrity and am not the type of person to witness blatant misleading or hiding of information to facilitate a sale. It's clear why you encounter more issues with you transaction than positive.

 

[tfridgen]

You know we don't read every thread, right. If something bothers you, it needs to be reported to us otherwise, it's just whining.
These public leaving announcements are hilarious though, 9 times out of 10, the people who create these threads are back in a week under a different name.

 

[cardinal]

Not commenting on the drama.

But what I do before buying any guitar from a private seller: confirm that there are no issues with the truss rod function, frets, or playability. Get it in writing that there are no issues (or that there are issues you can deal with) and if that turns out not to be the case, just use PayPal to get your money back. Just a quick, simple question and that's it.

 

[peterc52]

You know we don't read every thread, right. If something bothers you, it needs to be reported to us otherwise, it's just whining.
These public leaving announcements are hilarious though, 9 times out of 10, the people who create these threads are back in a week under a different name.

I would have to agree with OP. There’s a lot of name calling. Users created just for that exact purpose. In almost every thread. It’s getting tiring. Take focus away from what we’re here for. The moderators have a exceptional long leash for people around here.

 

[Badronald]

Just leave

 

[sleewell2]

I think this is one of many reasons not to do business with that psycho.

 

[SavageRiffer]

It's been a good 11 years gents, but this place has gone to utter shit. The inmates run the asylum and the mods just let it happen. You can' go a day without witness complete BS from the same folks and quite honestly has worn thin for a long time. Thanks to all of the good folks that have helped me out through the years.

In short Dude lost his shit when the "fine" side adjustment nut on his "incredible" Warmoth broke, but now that he's selling it feels that it's inconsequential because it's a convenience feature. Well, even if the guitar can still be adjust bey removing the neck and using the main adjustment doesn't negate the fact that the side adjustment is still broken. Perhaps the days of integrity and disclosure are a thing of the past for some. It's a wonder why someone would have issue after issue with online transactions when they have their own definition of things and decide what is consequential when things do not function as designed on their gear.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=191696&p=2137363&hilit=Warmoth#p2137363

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192758

SR,

If a guitar has a function whether designed out of convenience or necessity it's not up to you to decide it's inconsequential. Anyone with integrity would disclose a known issue with something they are sell IMHO. The inconsequential function was obviously traumatic enough for you to vent about in the original thread, so wouldn't you think it may be equally important to a potential buyer. This has nothing to do with looking for an opportunity to attack you or being a dick. I have integrity and am not the type of person to witness blatant misleading or hiding of information to facilitate a sale. It's clear why you encounter more issues with you transaction than positive.

THAT'S A GOD DAMNED LIE! There was nothing deceptive whatsoever. It was already known because I WAS THE ONE WHO DISCUSSED IT IN DETAIL you idiot. So what the side adjustment nut is missing? It's clearly in my thread "heel adjustment only" and it has been in the description since I opened the thread. You are clearly lying through your teeth. The truss rod is fine. The guitar plays fine and I stand behind everything I trade. You're making bullshit out of nothing. That's fucking rotten, especially when I already addressed that in the trade thread and then you carry it over here like a sniveling little subversive.

Don't question my fucking integrity when I have hundreds of transaction on eBay and Reverb. In fact, I earned the status of premier seller on Reverb. I've done a ton of high-dollar deals with members of this and other forums for years. I've never ONCE been deceptive. That's a motherfucking fact. If I've ever had an issue with any seller or buyer, it had been resolved amicably with the single exception of the bastard Kamran Kavian who tried to rip me off. Reverb sided with me and booted that con off Reverb. Trying to conflate that incident with my reputation for trading is such a foul thing to do. I have ZERO respect for you. It's fucking sad that you can't even see how shitty what you're doing is.

I have never once done anything deceptive to anyone. It's the most shitty, bannable offense for YOU to accuse someone of baseless shit like this. Regardless of what you might personally think of me, your bullshit goes beyond mere butthurt. Who do you think are are, Al Green?

It's petty and despicable what you're doing here. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you evidently have no shame. This is just despicable shit to do to someone man. I'm an honest guy in every aspect of trade, and if it's a fault to hold others to the same degree of honesty, then so be it, but that doesn't give you the fucking right to put my integrity into question.

HOWEVER, because you're such a petty, sniveling little prick, I'm going to expose your foolishness. I WILL SHIP OR BRING THAT GUITAR TO A CREDIBLE TECH OR MEMBER OF THIS FORUM FOR EVALUATION. WHEN THEY CERTIFY THAT IT PLAYS WELL, SOUNDS GREAT, AND HAS ZERO ISSUES WITH THE NECK OR TRUSS ROD, THEN I'D LOVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT ASSHOLE. ANYONE IN THE HOUSTON AREA CONTACT ME TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS.

 

[maddnotez]

I will ship or bring that guitar to a credible member of the forum for evaluation. When they certify that the guitar is perfectly fine, plays well, sounds great, and has zero issues with the neck, then I'd love to hear what you have to say about that.[/size][/b]

Send to me, I have incredible member.

 

[thesockmonster]

Yeesh. See ya, have fun folks.

 

[scottosan]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

 

[Metlupass2]

Post a pic of your Pro Am before you go!

 

[SavageRiffer]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

Enough of the bullshit man. I don't understand why you want to carry on this crap even though I've already CLEARLY addressed it. I'm going to be honest with you here because even though this is the Internet, it feels a little bit shitty that you can come along and do such a despicable thing without any conscience at all. OK, so you don't like me or my opinions, that's fine. However, to put my integrity into question is a disturbing offense. One thing that I have always stood by is my honor. It's utter bullshit that you go to this length to try and diminish my reputation.

Let me tell you something asshole. It takes effort to do good transactions with people. It takes effort to maintain positive feedback in HUNDREDS of deals. You have to be 100% honest 100% of the time. For some asshole to come along and publicly call out my integrity is just fucking despicable. Now you're just trying to find a way of justifying your behavior when you already know you were dead wrong.

You are welcome to inspect any of my guitars yourself. I'm not afraid of putting my stuff on the examination table. If you're going to talk so much bullshit and make such outrageous threads, then at least be man enough to put your own reputation at stake and be willing to apologize like a man when you are proven wrong. This thread is just a petty, shitty thing to do to someone. You should delete it and leave with some dignity. I'm actually a little sad that there are people who do this kind of despicable shit.

Another thing... After you attacked me viciously in that Kavian thread, I didn't take it personally and hold a grudge. In subsequent threads, I made the effort to interact with you nicely. Then out of nowhere, you come along and pull this shit. YOU ARE THE ONE fucking up the harmony of this forum. HERE ARE THE FACTS: when Copilot was attacking me, I even sent him a PM to try and settle it. I'm not the asshole around here just because I fire back when someone puts me in the crosshairs. I have apologized directly to people on the occasions I was wrong, and have admitted when I've made mistakes. I don't carry shit from thread to thread. Those are the hard facts man. I'm not the asshole. Therefore, on your hiatus, maybe you should do a little soul-searching and develop some introspect and retrospect because this is one of the most asshole things I've seen anyone do on the forum.

 

[napalmdeath]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

 

[scottosan]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

Enough of the bullshit man. I don't understand why you want to carry on this crap even though I've already CLEARLY addressed it. I'm going to be honest with you here because even though this is the Internet, it feels a little bit shitty that you can come along and do such a despicable thing without any conscience at all. OK, so you don't like me or my opinions, that's fine. However, to put my integrity into question is a disturbing offense. One thing that I have always stood by is my honor. It's utter bullshit that you go to this length to try and diminish my reputation.

Let me tell you something asshole. It takes effort to do good transactions with people. It takes effort to maintain positive feedback in HUNDREDS of deals. You have to be 100% honest 100% of the time. For some asshole to come along and publicly call out my integrity is just fucking despicable. Now you're just trying to find a way of justifying your behavior when you already know you were dead wrong.

You are welcome to inspect any of my guitars yourself. I'm not afraid of putting my stuff on the examination table. If you're going to talk so much bullshit and make such outrageous threads, then at least be man enough to put your own reputation at stake and be willing to apologize like a man when you are proven wrong. This thread is just a petty, shitty thing to do to someone. You should delete it and leave with some dignity. I'm actually a little sad that there are people who do this kind of despicable shit.

Another thing... After you attacked me viciously in that Kavian thread, I didn't take it personally and hold a grudge. In subsequent threads, I made the effort to interact with you nicely. Then out of nowhere, you come along and pull this shit. YOU ARE THE ONE fucking up the harmony of this forum. HERE ARE THE FACTS: when Copilot was attacking me, I even sent him a PM to try and settle it. I'm not the asshole around here just because I fire back when someone puts me in the crosshairs. I have apologized directly to people on the occasions I was wrong, and have admitted when I've made mistakes. I don't carry shit from thread to thread. Those are the hard facts man. I'm not the asshole. Therefore, on your hiatus, maybe you should do a little soul-searching and develop some introspect and retrospect because this is one of the most asshole things I've seen anyone do on the forum.

i didn’t see your yes or no response on the side adjust. Does it work or not? Name calling Is not necessary

 

[SavageRiffer]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

Thanks man.

 

[napalmdeath]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

Thanks man.

Send me that guitar, I'll let him know if it works..

 

[milkchickenbomb]

Sorry to see you go. I’ve only been here a just over a year, but in that time I’ve seen a few knowledgeable and talented contributors leave, and it’s a damn shame. And the other people also left over some stupid shit from the growing RT asshole/scammer/political extremist contingent. Some folks are apparently in all three categories.

I’ll miss your amp build threads in particular, scottosan. Really appreciated your posts and threads.

I can only imagine how good this forum was in the good ol days.

 

[scottosan]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

the problem is that a difference of opinion is taken personally by him and turns into name calling. If a person states that a a part or function of a guitar no longer works, then in another thread trying to sell that same item and instead of addressing the legitimate question resorts to the typical personal attacks

 

[scottosan]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

Thanks man.

Send me that guitar, I'll let him know if it works..

Haven't we traded before? I'll do it if you're willing to be the objective evaluator and put an end to Scottosan's sick little crusade.

does the side truss work or not? The question is not a crusade. It’s a legitimate question

 

[SavageRiffer]

So I was not going to post again but felt compelled to do so to leave one last bit of state of affairs here since there has been some offline interaction with some moderators. The mods cannot be expected to read through every post, at least I personally don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation. That being said perhaps I am the problem here since a I’ve gotten similar responses from 2 different mods.

So I read some of his threads and to be honest, it seems like he's pretty helpful most of the time, until random people come in to attack for no apparent reason. Reading more threads and it seems as it's always the same people following him around to post shit in his threads.....

Final question to SR: does the Gotoh side adjust work or not work on the guitar in question? It’s a reasonable question which only requires a yes/no answer.

Anyway this is not me changing my mind about leaving just acknowledging that if the mods thinks he’s the victim again that’s all we need to know.

Peace

I agree with the mods. Though he's attacked me to the point that I've said something, I also took responsibility of my own taking part in it. It's gotten to the point where it's just gotten silly.

I've noticed a change in his demeanor of late, and it seems as if he's ignoring the drama as well.

On a personal note to SR, he seems like a stand up guy and extremely knowledgeable . I think some of these children here need to stay over at the Guitar Amp Board, where immaturity runs rampant, and seems to be a prerequisite. Some just can't let go of the Harmony Central mentality, and the illusion that it's "cool" to treat one another with disrespect. As sad as it sounds, I've been spending the majority of my time at TGP of late. Yeah, some of it is not my cup of tea, but the arguing, disrespect, and immaturity is kept to a minimum, and there's some good people there.

Again, I'm not claiming to be a saint, but at some point you become a product of your environment. Going forward, I hope to contribute more to being a solution, rather than the problem. I think deep down, that's SR's goal, but there's a handful here that aren't happy unless they're stirring the kool aid. Leave the fucking guy alone, plain and simple. Enough is enough.

Thanks man.

Send me that guitar, I'll let him know if it works..

Haven't we traded before? I'll do it if you're willing to be the objective evaluator and put an end to Scottosan's sick little crusade.

does the side truss work or not? The question is not a crusade. It’s a legitimate question

Read the trade thread. It's stated clearly there, and it has been stated clearly there since I created the thread. I quoted you twice what it said. At this point, all I can advise you to make the answer more clear is to point you to an elementary school that can teach you how to read. It is a sick little crusade. It's not a legitimate question. You know exactly what you were trying to do when you posted that bullshit, then someone else called you out on it, and now you're hanging on to this pathetic thread trying to justify your stupidity. Fucking shit man. Have you no shame? Fucking grow a pair of balls and admit you were being stupid and end this idiocy. Besides, I thought you were checking out. Leave with some fucking decency or at least blow it all up like someone with a sack.