FRIEDMAN JOSE - New demo video

[Anje]

Fully agree on the 50w VS 100w (or overall smaller / bigger wattage) general differences;
When talking old / classic Marshall in particular, comparing similar models (x2 Bass, or Lead...), I usually word it that way:
- 50w: more compressed, slightly rounder / "warmer" / "thicker" sound & feel; makes it sometimes feel "gainier"
- 100w: more punch, bigger AND tighter bottom end, sounds "larger" & clearer, louder & feels less forgiving

Both are great to me.
NB: no sorry, you won't make a 100w sound & feel like a 50w by removing 2 tubes; it will just sound & feel worse like a so-so 100w, IMHO

 

[BABMusic]

Not always, but many times... 100w usually have more filtering, which recharges faster. Mostly, though, 100w is more punchy because they have more reserve power from the additional filtering. That's also why they usually have more low end. And then there's the additional headroom. All related.

Someone else would probably explain this better than I do. But in general, 50w'ers are sweeter and more giving, where 100w'ers are punchier and faster. Both are equally valid, and I go back and forth about which I like best. All depends on the situation, I think.

Just as a side story, I've been playing my BE50 without the SAT switch on, and the amp does sound much better in terms of tone without it. The problem is, you don't really get enough gain for metal or leads if you turn it off. Using an overdrive works well, but it changes the voicing, of course. The SAT switch does something weird to the bottom end in that it becomes slightly less organic and more spungy. I understand why even Dave told me in person that he did not like the SAT switch on the BE models. However, my understanding is that the clipping diodes on the Jose, while similar, are better sounding than the SAT switch on the BE. As far as I know, the only Friedman amp that has a lot of gain that doesn't use a SAT switch is the SS100V2. For that reason alone, I am curious as to how that amp sounds with the gain all being from tubes.

 

[ChurchHill]

IDK about the SS100V2, but the sat switch on the BE100DLX doesn't sound like either of the clipper options on the Jose. I would agree that it sounds better than the BE sat switch, but that's subjective. I don't dislike the BE100 sat, but know what you mean about it being more spongey and somehow less organic. I might describe that as more compressed or less dynamic, maybe even more artificial, which is about the same thing. I don't think any of that's true about the Jose, though, then again, I grew up hooked on that sound and it delivers in spades.

If you try the SS100V2, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[BABMusic]

Oh, I realized I have been spelling spongey wrong. lol. Better correct that going forward.

 

[mentoneman]

Fully agree on the 50w VS 100w (or overall smaller / bigger wattage) general differences;
When talking old / classic Marshall in particular, comparing similar models (x2 Bass, or Lead...), I usually word it that way:
- 50w: more compressed, slightly rounder / "warmer" / "thicker" sound & feel; makes it sometimes feel "gainier"
- 100w: more punch, bigger AND tighter bottom end, sounds "larger" & clearer, louder & feels less forgiving

Both are great to me.
NB: no sorry, you won't make a 100w sound & feel like a 50w by removing 2 tubes; it will just sound & feel worse like a so-so 100w, IMHO

when i a/bed the peacemaker w/2 tubes pulled vs the 50 wt scorpion i preferred the PM’s deeper low end and smoother upper mids. helped the PM break up easier but the scorpion still broke up faster. Victor said he used the same transformer in both so it’s very close.

 

[Anje]

I should have been more specific and said I was having in mind old Marshall in particular.
But I agree, "different", rather than "worse", would be more to the point overall; I was a little provocative
And yes, one can prefer one or the other; best to make sure the output impedance on the amp is set accordingly, then as long as it sounds good, it is fine

 

[BABMusic]

IDK about the SS100V2, but the sat switch on the BE100DLX doesn't sound like either of the clipper options on the Jose. I would agree that it sounds better than the BE sat switch, but that's subjective. I don't dislike the BE100 sat, but know what you mean about it being more spongey and somehow less organic. I might describe that as more compressed or less dynamic, maybe even more artificial, which is about the same thing. I don't think any of that's true about the Jose, though, then again, I grew up hooked on that sound and it delivers in spades.

If you try the SS100V2, I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Also, since you own the 100DLX, does the Jose have more gain with the diodes on than the BE100 does with the SAT off?

 

[LP Freak]

Also, since you own the 100DLX, does the Jose have more gain with the diodes on than the BE100 does with the SAT off?

Honestly, if the BED doesn’t have enough gain for you without the SAT, you’re playing the wrong amp. I’m pretty sure the BED,the SS and the Jose are all pretty similar similar gain wise.

 

[BABMusic]

Honestly, if the BED doesn’t have enough gain for you without the SAT, you’re playing the wrong amp. I’m pretty sure the BED,the SS and the Jose are all pretty similar similar gain wise.

I would say the BE50 has enough gain without the SAT if I'm playing rhythm parts. For leads? I wish it had just a little bit more without having to use the SAT. Turning on the SAT gives more than enough gain for me, but it changes the tone. I am not super high gain guy myself, as when I played the JVM410, I kept the gain at 2-3. I like just enough to get a nice sustain. I never need to turn my Mark IV up past 6.

 

[ChurchHill]

Also, since you own the 100DLX, does the Jose have more gain with the diodes on than the BE100 does with the SAT off?

I'd say it does. It's a different feel and great for leads, just like the BE100Dlx is a different feel with Sat engaged. Like @LP Freak says, they're both pretty similar gain wise. The Jose feels better and sounds better, to me, both for leads and as an all-around machine. I still like my BE, especially the BE mode. It's really a 2+ channel amp where I look at the Jose as a one channel amp. I'd take the Jose over the HBE channel any day, but it's just the last 2% of that specific sound.

For reference, I run my Marks with the gain around 5 and the drive around 7, tweaking a bit based on the guitar I'm using and how loud I'm playing. I felt like the JVM was a little congested for my tastes. Great amp, to be sure, but it didn't do anything that I couldn't get out of my other Marshalls.

 

[LP Freak]

I would say the BE50 has enough gain without the SAT if I'm playing rhythm parts. For leads? I wish it had just a little bit more without having to use the SAT. Turning on the SAT gives more than enough gain for me, but it changes the tone. I am not super high gain guy myself, as when I played the JVM410, I kept the gain at 2-3. I like just enough to get a nice sustain. I never need to turn my Mark IV up past 6.

I never cared for the tone with the SAT on either. I use the BE channel for rhythm and the HBE for solos. Are you running the HBE plus the SAT? And what kind of volume do you play at?

 

[BABMusic]

Are you running the HBE plus the SAT? And what kind of volume do you play at?

Yes, I had been doing that, but I found the HBE sounds better with it off. I play at low, low volumes. I can't really turn it up loud because of my living situation.

 

[LP Freak]

Yes, I had been doing that, but I found the HBE sounds better with it off. I play at low, low volumes. I can't really turn it up loud because of my living situation.

View attachment 445239

Can you post some examples of the tone and level of gain you’re trying to achieve?

 

[ChurchHill]

Do you have an attenuator or a load box? One thing that the BE100Dlx does better than the Jose is sounding good at low levels. Both amps get better once they're opened up a bit. A good attenuator will help with that.

 

[BABMusic]

Do you have an attenuator or a load box? One thing that the BE100Dlx does better than the Jose is sounding good at low levels. Both amps get better once they're opened up a bit. A good attenuator will help with that.

I don't have one. Do you use an attenuator? I was under the impression that having a master volume was good enough. I know the Jose has one too in the back. I'm always experimenting with where I like it on the BE50.

@LP Freak All I'm trying to achieve is a gain similar to my Mark IV. I made a crude comparison video where you can hear how the IV has a little more sustain. The BE50 doesn't have the SAT on.

 

[ChurchHill]

I don't have one. Do you use an attenuator? I was under the impression that having a master volume was good enough. I know the Jose has one too in the back. I'm always experimenting with where I like it on the BE50.

All I'm trying to achieve is a gain similar to my Mark IV. I made a crude comparison video where you can hear how the IV has a little more sustain. The BE50 doesn't have the SAT on.

I do use an attenuator sometimes, although I can get pretty loud, too.

Using the System Volume or the effect loop Return Level can help by not having to keep the channel and master volumes so low, but it's not the same thing as an attenuator because they lower the level going into the power amp, before the power tubes. An attenuator does the opposite in that it reduces the level after the power tubes just before the speakers. That allows the power tubes to operate at the level they were intended which adds harmonic content and sustain. This is less true for some more modern amps, but both the BE and Jose are heavily based on old Marshall circuits and really benefit from pushing the power amps.

Neither the BE or Jose have as much gain as the Mark IV, but I think both are capable of getting where you want to be. They just have to be turned up a bit. FWIW, I thought the BE sounded great in your clip, nice, clear, and defined, and great for rhythm. I understand exactly what you mean about not having as much gain as the Mark IV in your clip, though. It's that fluid for lack of a better word lead sound and the reason I've always loved the Mark series.

I'll add more later this afternoon... gotta run at the moment.

 

[ChurchHill]

My advice would be to look into an attenuator or a load box. Something like the Fryette Power Station has a load box and a power amp into so you can run your BE hard into the load and then use the PS to power your cab as quietly as you need to. I think that would really help get your BE to sound more like what you're going for. An attenuator without a power amp would work for this, too, but when attenuators are used to take off a lot of volume, say more than -6db attenuation, they start affecting the tone. To get the Jose or BE to be as quiet as you need them to be, you'll need to take off about 20db, maybe more. Some have ways to compensate, and you can make adjustments to the amp, too. For me, that's good enough but I don't have a volume restriction, either, but I definitely have lived in places where I couldn't make any noise at all.

I'll add, too, as much as I love the Jose, I don't think it's going to get you any closer to what you're trying to achieve than the BE already does because it needs to be run hard to get that sound, more than the BE does. At lower volume levels, the BE sounds marginally better. And, that Mark IV sounds great even if the Output Level can be a little touchy, at least mine is either whisper quiet or pretty damn loud. An attenuator would help with that, too, although the Mark doesn't need it as much as the BE or Jose do.

Another option might be to try something like a Dallas Rangemaster Treble Booster. They have a way of accentuating the pick attack and adding some sustain that is similar to what the Mark does.

 

[BABMusic]

My advice would be to look into an attenuator or a load box. Something like the Fryette Power Station has a load box and a power amp into so you can run your BE hard into the load and then use the PS to power your cab as quietly as you need to. I think that would really help get your BE to sound more like what you're going for. An attenuator without a power amp would work for this, too, but when attenuators are used to take off a lot of volume, say more than -6db attenuation, they start affecting the tone. To get the Jose or BE to be as quiet as you need them to be, you'll need to take off about 20db, maybe more. Some have ways to compensate, and you can make adjustments to the amp, too. For me, that's good enough but I don't have a volume restriction, either, but I definitely have lived in places where I couldn't make any noise at all.

I'll add, too, as much as I love the Jose, I don't think it's going to get you any closer to what you're trying to achieve than the BE already does because it needs to be run hard to get that sound, more than the BE does. At lower volume levels, the BE sounds marginally better. And, that Mark IV sounds great even if the Output Level can be a little touchy, at least mine is either whisper quiet or pretty damn loud. An attenuator would help with that, too, although the Mark doesn't need it as much as the BE or Jose do.

Another option might be to try something like a Dallas Rangemaster Treble Booster. They have a way of accentuating the pick attack and adding some sustain that is similar to what the Mark does.

That's very helpful, thank you. I think before I was mainly interested if the feel of the Jose would be more to my liking, because I was using the SAT switch a lot before. The feel of the BE50 is much better when I turn off the SAT -- feels a little less immediate with it on. If the Jose has a less immediate thing too with the diodes on, it might not be what I really want. The Mark IV is in triode mode and class A, which is as low wattage as you can go, as it's only using the EL34 tubes in the outer sockets. Triode mode in the IV sounds great, and I even prefer it to full Pentode for low volume playing. BE50 on triode sounds, well... smooth, but more boxy and less round. Dave told me he's considering removing it from the BE50 because he didn't like it.

I just got done dumping on LA in the Vai thread, but sometimes I wish I were still there just so I could drive to Dave's shop and try the Jose.

Also @LP Freak you asked for a sample of what I try to sound like (generally speaking). I think this track captures the most gain I typically want.

 

[LP Freak]

That's very helpful, thank you. I think before I was mainly interested if the feel of the Jose would be more to my liking, because I was using the SAT switch a lot before. The feel of the BE50 is much better when I turn off the SAT -- feels a little less immediate with it on. If the Jose has a less immediate thing too with the diodes on, it might not be what I really want. The Mark IV is in triode mode and class A, which is as low wattage as you can go, as it's only using the EL34 tubes in the outer sockets. Triode mode in the IV sounds great, and I even prefer it to full Pentode for low volume playing. BE50 on triode sounds, well... smooth, but more boxy and less round. Dave told me he's considering removing it from the BE50 because he didn't like it.

I just got done dumping on LA in the Vai thread, but sometimes I wish I were still there just so I could drive to Dave's shop and try the Jose.

Also @LP Freak you asked for a sample of what I try to sound like (generally speaking). I think this track captures the most gain I typically want.

That’s easily attainable on the BE channel, but you’ll need to run an OD with it. I know you’re worried about it changing your tone, but there’s plenty of them out there that are transparent. You just might need to experiment a little to find out what works for you. I was always against running an OD, but once I found the right ones it changed everything.

BTW, what you’re hearing in that clip is an amp wide open

 

[ChurchHill]

BTW, what you’re hearing in that clip is an amp wide open

Yep. You can hear how the mids have this huge bloom, the single notes have this squishiness, and the lows sound like they're on the verge of falling apart but don't. That's a power amp that's cranked WAY up.