Getting more headroom out of head with speakers?

[geraci89]

Is this possible? and how much of a difference would it make? I have a Traynor YBA1MOD1 40 watt head and a Traynor 2x12 loaded with Greenbacks. So 40 watts of head powering 50 watts of speaker. Whenever this amp even gets remotely close to jamming volumes you're in overdrive land and there's no way back really.

If I had 100w of speaker or so would that prolong my headroom a little bit longer in this scenario? If it doesn't, and even to try to achieve a bit more, are preamp tubes or output tubes the next highest priority to achieve cleaner tones at identical volumes that are currently broken up?

The amp has 2 Ruby EL34BSTR's in the power section and 3 sovtek 12ax7WA's in the pre section I believe.

I REALLY love this amp, just wish I could get it a touch cleaner at volumes it can achieve, problem is once I get to those volumes I don't have a clean tone anymore. Any help or suggestions for tubes/speakers would be great. Thanks!

 

[thegame]

Look for speakers that have higher efficiency and a higher wattage capacity than greenbacks.

 

[barnesjd]

Look for speakers that have higher efficiency and a higher wattage capacity than greenbacks.

THIS. Greenbacks are fantastic speakers at loud volumes if you like the breakup, but horrible if you don't like it. There are plenty which will handle this much better for ya. Give the G12H30s a look.

 

[Racerxrated]

G12 80s are also hard to break up, and very neutral for a Celestion. Nice speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

find some k100s or h100s

or even the elite 80s.

my guess is, your amp at jamming volumes is peaking out much higher than 50 watts RMS even though it's a 40 watt amp, thereby causing the speakers to break up.

shit, you could mix a t75 and a vintage 30....that's 135w of speaker rating there...should be plenty, and are ALWAYS a good mix together....

 

[dmace]

High efficiency, high wattage speakers would get you much more noticeable results than anything else, but from reading about his amp it seems to have low headroom by design so even with changing speakers, tubes, etc., it may not be enough clean headroom for you. I’ve been in your shoes before and sometimes you’re better off in the long run by selling the amp and getting a different one but only you can decide that so it depends on how much you like the amp tone now and how much do you want to spend to try and make it better. Since preamp tubes are cheaper than speakers you may want to start there and see if you notice a change. I’d start with changing V1 and maybe V2 tube to a 12AY7 and change V3 to a 12AT7, 12AY7, or the JJ 5751 balanced triode. The EH12AY7 are a good sounding tube and are about $14 each. For power tubes lots of folks seem to like the JJ KT-77’s in place of EL-34 for a cleaner tone, but I have not tried them myself so I can’t say for sure. If you order from a good vendor like Doug’s tubes or tube depot call first and ask them to pick out a higher headroom/late breakup tubes and see what they have to offer. On to speakers, if you have newer G12M greenbacks in the cab now, the sensitivity (on paper) of each speaker is 98db with power handling of 25 watts. Part of the sound of a greenback is how it breaks up at high volume, it adds speaker distortion and color to the tone that's not clean but that's the sound it makes and why folks like me love them. I also have an EV12L which has a 100db sensitivity and power handling of 200 watts, and that speaker is loud, clean, and just doesn't breakup and the 2-3db difference will be slightly louder and much cleaner sounding at high volume vs. the greenback. There are lots of speaker choices depending on your budget so shop around and check the specs for sensitivity & power handling but I own and would recommend the EV12L, JBL E or K120, G12H100 and the Eminence Delta Pro 12A which to me sounds sort of like the EV with a little less top end and it’s much less expensive than the EV. Good luck and I hope you find the tone you’re after.

 

[ke2]

find some k100s or h100s

or even the elite 80s.

my guess is, your amp at jamming volumes is peaking out much higher than 50 watts RMS even though it's a 40 watt amp, thereby causing the speakers to break up.

shit, you could mix a t75 and a vintage 30....that's 135w of speaker rating there...should be plenty, and are ALWAYS a good mix together....

It would actually be 120 watts, but still enough oomph.
From Earcandy:

"Quick tip – Another quick tip to keep in mind if you are mixing speaker models in your cab, your highest wattage capability is only double that of your lowest rated speaker. What I mean by this is, lets say for the sake of this article you have a 2×12 with a 35 watt speaker on the left and a 100 watt speaker on the right, wired in series or parallel ( Both wiring models achieve the same thing, a mono speaker cab) you now have a 70 watt speaker cab, NOT a 135 watt speaker cab, though it is true that each speaker will take on some of the character of the other speaker, especially the decibel rating, the wattage rating is a measurement of how much voltage the speaker can handle and this will not change.
So always remember that your cabs wattage rating is only double that of your lowest rated speaker in a 2x speaker cab or 4 times your lowest rated speaker in a 4x speaker cab. If you are using a combo amp and en extension cabinet, this rule still applies."

 

[Anonymous]

find some k100s or h100s

or even the elite 80s.

my guess is, your amp at jamming volumes is peaking out much higher than 50 watts RMS even though it's a 40 watt amp, thereby causing the speakers to break up.

shit, you could mix a t75 and a vintage 30....that's 135w of speaker rating there...should be plenty, and are ALWAYS a good mix together....

It would actually be 120 watts, but still enough oomph.
From Earcandy:

"Quick tip – Another quick tip to keep in mind if you are mixing speaker models in your cab, your highest wattage capability is only double that of your lowest rated speaker. What I mean by this is, lets say for the sake of this article you have a 2×12 with a 35 watt speaker on the left and a 100 watt speaker on the right, wired in series or parallel ( Both wiring models achieve the same thing, a mono speaker cab) you now have a 70 watt speaker cab, NOT a 135 watt speaker cab, though it is true that each speaker will take on some of the character of the other speaker, especially the decibel rating, the wattage rating is a measurement of how much voltage the speaker can handle and this will not change.
So always remember that your cabs wattage rating is only double that of your lowest rated speaker in a 2x speaker cab or 4 times your lowest rated speaker in a 4x speaker cab. If you are using a combo amp and en extension cabinet, this rule still applies."

wow. that's reallly interesting... i obviously NEVER knew that.
i have to digest that one, and think about it a while, and see where it fits/applies to what i'm doing and how it would change it or not be really much of a big deal.
thanks for that one!!

 

[geraci89]

Wow thanks for all the replies!

Yeah it's a pretty overwhelming world when you look at how many different breeds of speakers there are. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the sound of the greenbacks I really do....and I'm not looking for something that doesn't break up smoothly because my ideal clean tone is a smooth and responsive clean/broken up border, but I just can't achieve that at high enough of a volume without it being too much on the overdrive end.

For what it's worth to try to save me some time, does anybody know of speakers that are similar in overall tonal characteristic to the greenbacks but have higher power handling? and a b) to that question would be does sensitivity or wattage mean more in terms of perceived loudness that I'll measure?

Thanks guys, your input is awesome!

 

[geraci89]

Another thing I wanna add too is that 99% of the time I play at bedroom volumes and achieve my ideal tone running .1 watts, but it's just one of those "what if" things if I need my rig to jam/gig with. I don't need to be ridiculously loud, but I feel like the 40 watts should be enough to maybe not achieve sparking cleans at jam volumes, but at least a reasonable clean

 

[barnesjd]

For what it's worth to try to save me some time, does anybody know of speakers that are similar in overall tonal characteristic to the greenbacks but have higher power handling? and a b) to that question would be does sensitivity or wattage mean more in terms of perceived loudness that I'll measure?

Thanks guys, your input is awesome!

Some of the guys around here have me gassing for some Celestion G12-65's. I haven't played any yet, but they are Greenbacks with a larger dust cover and much higher power handling at 65 watts. The larger dust cover will attenuate the highs a little more, so you may lose some of the sparkle you're used to. These were common in the Marshall cabs in the late 70s/early 80s, so finding them at a reasonable price can be tricky. I think there are some Heritage reissues available, but I doubt they compare to some well-worn-in originals.

 

[geraci89]

I just picked a couple V30's for $100 each and popped them in. Can't really tell if I'm noticing much a louder sound from it. the wires are easy clips so I'll do some comparison recordings early next week to really put them back to back.

I mentioned my problem to the guy I bought them from and he suggested throwing a 5751 in V1 to replace the 12ax7. Says it should increase my headroom without affecting the overall volume of the amp. Does anybody have anything to say about that? seems like a cheap experiment either way...$15 for a JJ 5751

 

[Anonymous]

i would try a mullard cv4024 12at7 in the PI.....seems to make things a bit cleaner in my amps.