DanTravis62
Moderator
Yes, the congress of the united states, what craaaazy wackjobs they must be
Yes, the congress of the united states, what craaaazy wackjobs they must be
R
Robostyle
Well-known member
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
I went through each source you listed and wrote a short, plain-language analysis and rebuttal for each. Where the sources make big claims I point out the key problems (methods, assumptions, missing context) and give the more reliable counterpoints.
1. The House Budget Committee / CIS testimony (Steven Camarota), “The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers” (Jan 11, 2024)
Claim: illegal immigrants are a large net fiscal drain (large per-person lifetime “drain”), big costs for K–12, emergency medical care, welfare, etc. ([budget.house.gov][1])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• The analysis treats *gross* program costs as if every dollar is caused by the immigrant rather than asking the correct economic question: what is the *marginal* (additional) cost of one more person? Many costs (schools, hospitals) are only partially variable and are already budgeted.
• The testimony mixes short-term local/state costs (education, shelter) with lifetime federal fiscal estimates without reconciling time horizons; that creates apples-to-oranges comparisons.
• It leans on assumptions about the size and education mix of the undocumented population that other demographers dispute; small changes in those assumptions change results a lot.
• It downplays or omits tax contributions, payroll taxes, and the long-run GDP effects immigrants generate — effects which independent panels show tend to improve federal fiscal balances over long horizons. See National Academies / peer literature. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
Bottom line: the paper reports useful raw figures, but its headline “drain” conclusion depends on strong assumptions (assigning full program costs, specific education/earnings patterns) and therefore overstates the negative fiscal picture.
2. FAIR / Julie Kirchner testimony / FAIR report (2023)
Claim: illegal immigration costs taxpayers ~$150B (FAIR’s headline) and large per-taxpayer burdens; big K-12 and medical tabulations. ([fairus.org][3])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• FAIR is an advocacy organization with a stated mission to reduce immigration; its studies use methodology choices that systematically inflate costs (e.g., attributing full school costs for U.S.-born children of undocumented parents to the parents’ immigration status). That’s a choice, not a neutral fact.
• FAIR’s method often counts *entire* program budgets proportionally instead of estimating the *marginal* share tied to new arrivals, which overstresses the fiscal impact.
• They undercount or under-value taxes and payroll contributions by undocumented households (sales, property avoided, payroll/SS contributions) and omit many dynamic economic benefits. Independent tax estimates (ITEP, American Immigration Council, etc.) show undocumented households pay tens of billions in taxes annually. ([ITEP][4])
• FAIR’s national aggregates obscure that most net costs are at the state/local level (education, emergency services), while federal fiscal effects are often closer to neutral or positive over long periods per independent analyses.
Bottom line: FAIR’s numbers are headline-grabbing but methodologically biased toward overstating costs.
3. Congressional witness packet / Kirchner testimony to House (Hearing document)
Claim: testimony lists education/medical/legal costs and implies large fiscal harm; used in committee rhetoric. ([Congress.gov][5])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• Congressional testimony often reflects an advocate’s role — it’s not peer-reviewed research. Treat it as a policy argument, not as neutral evidence.
• The same methodological issues apply: reliance on full cost allocations, selective time windows, and limited accounting for taxes or macro effects.
• The appropriate independent comparator for policymakers is CBO and academic literature; those show the surge raises state/local costs in the short run but that federal effects and long-run economic impacts are more mixed/positive. See CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge. ([Canadian Broadcasting Organization][6])
Bottom line: testimony is useful for showing what advocates want policymakers to focus on, but it isn’t a definitive empirical accounting.
4. AEI / COSM “Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant Households”
Claim: lists federal benefits and presents data implying big federal payouts to illegal-immigrant households. ([Cosm][7])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• AEI’s compilation selectively highlights instances where benefits can be paid (or are paid on behalf of U.S.-born children) but doesn’t always show scale, eligibility limits, or legal constraints. For instance, many major federal programs explicitly bar undocumented adults (SNAP, non-emergency Medicaid, ACA subsidies), though U.S.-born children may qualify.
• The piece tends to conflate *possible* benefit receipt with *typical* or *systemic* receipt; that inflates impressions of federal spending.
• AEI (a center-right think tank) provides helpful data points but, like the others, can cherry-pick line items without integrating tax payments, enforcement savings, or dynamic GDP effects that more comprehensive studies include.
Bottom line: AEI provides useful detail but the presentation can exaggerate the net federal fiscal burden when not balanced by taxes paid and long-run effects.
Common methodological issues across these sources (how to rebut them generally)
1. Attribution vs marginal cost: credible fiscal analysis asks what additional spending/tax effects occur from *one more person* or a cohort over time. These documents more often allocate full program budgets pro rata — which overstates costs. (NAS and many academic papers model marginal effects.) ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
2. Time horizon mismatch: short-term local/state costs (shelter, schooling) are real and concentrated, but long-run federal impacts (taxes, workforce contributions, Social Security) often offset those costs. National Academies and other peer reviews find federal fiscal effects are generally positive over long horizons. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
3. Taxes and economic contribution undercounted: several independent sources estimate undocumented households paid tens of billions in taxes (federal, state, local). Counting taxes properly reduces or reverses the “net cost” in many credible models. (See ITEP, American Immigration Council). ([ITEP][4])
4. Political/advocacy bias and selective use of data: FAIR and CIS are advocacy organizations with policy aims; AEI is a policy research institute with ideological leanings. Their outputs are useful for highlighting issues but require cross-checking with impartial institutions (CBO, NAS, peer-reviewed studies). ([budget.house.gov][1])
5. Federal vs state/local split: independent work (NAS, CBO) finds costs are concentrated at state/local levels (schools, emergency services). That matters because federal budgets and state budgets behave differently; a national “net drain” claim usually hides this split. CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge finds state/local spending rose faster than state/local tax revenue in 2023 (a short-run net cost at those levels), even as the surge raises GDP and federal revenues in other scenarios. ([Congressional Budget Office][6])
The reports you sent overstate costs because they allocate whole program budgets to undocumented people instead of measuring the *marginal* costs of additional people, rely on advocacy-oriented sources with selective assumptions, and undercount taxes and economic contributions that immigrants provide. Independent, peer-reviewed work (National Academies) and nonpartisan analyses (CBO) show the picture is more complex: the immigration surge does raise short-term state and local costs (education, shelter), but long-run federal fiscal effects and national economic effects are often neutral or positive once taxes, labor market contributions, and GDP effects are counted. If you want, I can produce a short, one-page, plain-language rebuttal that cites a few independent sources (CBO, National Academies, ITEP) and calls out the exact methodological flaws in each paper line-by-line.
[1]: https://budget.house.gov/imo/media/doc/the_cost_of_illegal_immigration_to_taxpayers.pdf "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers"
[2]: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...quences-of-immigration?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration"
[3]: https://www.fairus.org/sites/defaul...xpayers 2023 WEB_0.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States ..."
[4]: https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants - ITEP.org"
[5]: https://www.congress.gov/118/meetin...KirchnerJ-20240508.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Cost of the Border Crisis Testimony before the House ..."
[6]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61464?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Effects of the Surge in Immigration on State and Local ..."
[7]: https://cosm.aei.org/key-data-on-fe...-immigrant-households/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant ..."
1. The House Budget Committee / CIS testimony (Steven Camarota), “The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers” (Jan 11, 2024)
Claim: illegal immigrants are a large net fiscal drain (large per-person lifetime “drain”), big costs for K–12, emergency medical care, welfare, etc. ([budget.house.gov][1])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• The analysis treats *gross* program costs as if every dollar is caused by the immigrant rather than asking the correct economic question: what is the *marginal* (additional) cost of one more person? Many costs (schools, hospitals) are only partially variable and are already budgeted.
• The testimony mixes short-term local/state costs (education, shelter) with lifetime federal fiscal estimates without reconciling time horizons; that creates apples-to-oranges comparisons.
• It leans on assumptions about the size and education mix of the undocumented population that other demographers dispute; small changes in those assumptions change results a lot.
• It downplays or omits tax contributions, payroll taxes, and the long-run GDP effects immigrants generate — effects which independent panels show tend to improve federal fiscal balances over long horizons. See National Academies / peer literature. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
Bottom line: the paper reports useful raw figures, but its headline “drain” conclusion depends on strong assumptions (assigning full program costs, specific education/earnings patterns) and therefore overstates the negative fiscal picture.
2. FAIR / Julie Kirchner testimony / FAIR report (2023)
Claim: illegal immigration costs taxpayers ~$150B (FAIR’s headline) and large per-taxpayer burdens; big K-12 and medical tabulations. ([fairus.org][3])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• FAIR is an advocacy organization with a stated mission to reduce immigration; its studies use methodology choices that systematically inflate costs (e.g., attributing full school costs for U.S.-born children of undocumented parents to the parents’ immigration status). That’s a choice, not a neutral fact.
• FAIR’s method often counts *entire* program budgets proportionally instead of estimating the *marginal* share tied to new arrivals, which overstresses the fiscal impact.
• They undercount or under-value taxes and payroll contributions by undocumented households (sales, property avoided, payroll/SS contributions) and omit many dynamic economic benefits. Independent tax estimates (ITEP, American Immigration Council, etc.) show undocumented households pay tens of billions in taxes annually. ([ITEP][4])
• FAIR’s national aggregates obscure that most net costs are at the state/local level (education, emergency services), while federal fiscal effects are often closer to neutral or positive over long periods per independent analyses.
Bottom line: FAIR’s numbers are headline-grabbing but methodologically biased toward overstating costs.
3. Congressional witness packet / Kirchner testimony to House (Hearing document)
Claim: testimony lists education/medical/legal costs and implies large fiscal harm; used in committee rhetoric. ([Congress.gov][5])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• Congressional testimony often reflects an advocate’s role — it’s not peer-reviewed research. Treat it as a policy argument, not as neutral evidence.
• The same methodological issues apply: reliance on full cost allocations, selective time windows, and limited accounting for taxes or macro effects.
• The appropriate independent comparator for policymakers is CBO and academic literature; those show the surge raises state/local costs in the short run but that federal effects and long-run economic impacts are more mixed/positive. See CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge. ([Canadian Broadcasting Organization][6])
Bottom line: testimony is useful for showing what advocates want policymakers to focus on, but it isn’t a definitive empirical accounting.
4. AEI / COSM “Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant Households”
Claim: lists federal benefits and presents data implying big federal payouts to illegal-immigrant households. ([Cosm][7])
Rebuttal / problems to highlight:
• AEI’s compilation selectively highlights instances where benefits can be paid (or are paid on behalf of U.S.-born children) but doesn’t always show scale, eligibility limits, or legal constraints. For instance, many major federal programs explicitly bar undocumented adults (SNAP, non-emergency Medicaid, ACA subsidies), though U.S.-born children may qualify.
• The piece tends to conflate *possible* benefit receipt with *typical* or *systemic* receipt; that inflates impressions of federal spending.
• AEI (a center-right think tank) provides helpful data points but, like the others, can cherry-pick line items without integrating tax payments, enforcement savings, or dynamic GDP effects that more comprehensive studies include.
Bottom line: AEI provides useful detail but the presentation can exaggerate the net federal fiscal burden when not balanced by taxes paid and long-run effects.
Common methodological issues across these sources (how to rebut them generally)
1. Attribution vs marginal cost: credible fiscal analysis asks what additional spending/tax effects occur from *one more person* or a cohort over time. These documents more often allocate full program budgets pro rata — which overstates costs. (NAS and many academic papers model marginal effects.) ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
2. Time horizon mismatch: short-term local/state costs (shelter, schooling) are real and concentrated, but long-run federal impacts (taxes, workforce contributions, Social Security) often offset those costs. National Academies and other peer reviews find federal fiscal effects are generally positive over long horizons. ([nap.nationalacademies.org][2])
3. Taxes and economic contribution undercounted: several independent sources estimate undocumented households paid tens of billions in taxes (federal, state, local). Counting taxes properly reduces or reverses the “net cost” in many credible models. (See ITEP, American Immigration Council). ([ITEP][4])
4. Political/advocacy bias and selective use of data: FAIR and CIS are advocacy organizations with policy aims; AEI is a policy research institute with ideological leanings. Their outputs are useful for highlighting issues but require cross-checking with impartial institutions (CBO, NAS, peer-reviewed studies). ([budget.house.gov][1])
5. Federal vs state/local split: independent work (NAS, CBO) finds costs are concentrated at state/local levels (schools, emergency services). That matters because federal budgets and state budgets behave differently; a national “net drain” claim usually hides this split. CBO’s 2025 analysis of the 2023 surge finds state/local spending rose faster than state/local tax revenue in 2023 (a short-run net cost at those levels), even as the surge raises GDP and federal revenues in other scenarios. ([Congressional Budget Office][6])
The reports you sent overstate costs because they allocate whole program budgets to undocumented people instead of measuring the *marginal* costs of additional people, rely on advocacy-oriented sources with selective assumptions, and undercount taxes and economic contributions that immigrants provide. Independent, peer-reviewed work (National Academies) and nonpartisan analyses (CBO) show the picture is more complex: the immigration surge does raise short-term state and local costs (education, shelter), but long-run federal fiscal effects and national economic effects are often neutral or positive once taxes, labor market contributions, and GDP effects are counted. If you want, I can produce a short, one-page, plain-language rebuttal that cites a few independent sources (CBO, National Academies, ITEP) and calls out the exact methodological flaws in each paper line-by-line.
[1]: https://budget.house.gov/imo/media/doc/the_cost_of_illegal_immigration_to_taxpayers.pdf "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to Taxpayers"
[2]: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/c...quences-of-immigration?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Economic and Fiscal Consequences of Immigration"
[3]: https://www.fairus.org/sites/defaul...xpayers 2023 WEB_0.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States ..."
[4]: https://itep.org/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants - ITEP.org"
[5]: https://www.congress.gov/118/meetin...KirchnerJ-20240508.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "The Cost of the Border Crisis Testimony before the House ..."
[6]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61464?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Effects of the Surge in Immigration on State and Local ..."
[7]: https://cosm.aei.org/key-data-on-fe...-immigrant-households/?utm_source=chatgpt.com "Key Data on Federal Benefits Paid to Illegal Immigrant ..."
Findthetone1
Well-known member
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
Epic self own
DanTravis62
Moderator
I love that book. Honestly, everyone on planet earth should read it before they're allowed to talk about politics.
This is why propagandists are so easily able to brainwash people like JD. He's not super intelligent, but intelligent enough to believe that "experts" are intelligent.
If an "expert" tells him a "fact" using a data set, he's cognitively unable to sift through the data to come to his own conclusions; that's why his conclusions are always conveniently the UN/Globohomo party line. Because they are using his natural inclination to "trust your superiors" against him.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Findthetone1
Well-known member
It's what smooth brain limp wristers do. You can't reason with them. Just make fun of them....a lot!!!!
DanTravis62
Moderator
"hey guys I used AI to make my post for me and then took credit, that means I'm a smart"
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
No, it's just pathetic.
MadAsAHatter
Well-known member
LMFAO!!!!!!
You can't even read the sources and make your own analysis. You have to get ChatGPT to do it for you. What a fucking moronic shithead you are.
DanTravis62
Moderator
LMFAO!!!!!!
You can't even read the sources and make your own analysis. You have to get ChatGPT to do it for you. What a fucking moronic shithead you are.
Check the timestamps, he literally just used Google AI to cover the basic counterarguments he wanted and then pretended he did it himself in like 3 minutes
"yeah man I wrote this original 2000 page novel in 45 minutes. No I didn't cheat!"
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
Says the guy who posts MAGA's pet experts as "facts".
I've been to Wenatchee. I can see why you're always so angry.
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
You can't rebut the facts tho.LMFAO!!!!!!
You can't even read the sources and make your own analysis. You have to get ChatGPT to do it for you. What a fucking moronic shithead you are.
MadAsAHatter
Well-known member
When you actually posts some facts I'm happy to discuss them.
DanTravis62
Moderator
J
JDs Couch
Well-known member
You are busted. Your sources are blatantly biased while I posted balanced and independent studies.Yeah change the subject you fucking clown
busted
The Blazing Saddle
Well-known member
Phoney Iommi was created by ChatGPT, in other words a living cunt.
DanTravis62
Moderator
"You" didn't do anything
You're literally just prompting AI
Which honestly makes a ton of sense considering how odious and nonsensical most of your posts are; reddit is like 20% of AIs data modeling, and it shows.
espquade
Well-known member
No insult to state facts as many migrant workers do these type of jobs gladly and as such there pay is statically much lower than what causations would require. I'm not stating whether its right or wrong but the fact remains. Construction etc....
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