I finally found out what the pot behind van halen VH1 does (it wasn't a master at all)

[Nigel]

There were no jbl according to martin smith and i believe he is right it was probably two different greenbacks miced differently by Donn Landee’s different mic position. That was donn’s own secret technique… Martin did his own research and i fully agree with him.

Let’s just stop this now….

Yeah I recall hearing that Landee was doing the on axis/off axis dual SM57 technique way before studio Fredman and the now infamous "Clayman" tone was a thing.

That vid you posted of Zeke talking about Ed insisting on one mic parallel to the cone live resonates so much. It's all you need when done right. A late, dear friend of mine that was a recording engineer (before he was murdered) taught me that and it's never let me down.

 

[Racerxrated]

I am fairly certain Dave Friedman and others have the raw isolated tracks from VH1 with a greenback and a JBLD120F mic'd up. That clip is out there on YT somewhere and had been posted here in numerous Ed JBL threads. Maybe someone can find it.

Here it is........................Go get em Racer.........1st track is the Greenback, the 2nd track is the JBL.

EXACTLY!!!!!!

THANK YOU HARD DRIVER!!!!

Here you go Amp Chaser. You simply cannot overlook the No#1 most important thing (other than Ed's hands of course) in a signal chain, past the amp....the SPEAKERS USED. And, in this case, PROOF that Ed DID ABSOLUTELY USE JBLs to record VH1.
It's captain obvious anyway, when you compare both I to II that sizzle on I is gone on II. The JBLs weren't used on II.
Dude, just do yourself a favor (amp.chaser) and just spring for a pair of JBLs and throw em in a cab with modern GBs. I'd be floored if you don't agree that in person, right in front of your face, you've now solved a BIG part of the VHI sound.

 

[Amp_chaser]

EXACTLY!!!!!!

THANK YOU HARD DRIVER!!!!

Here you go Amp Chaser. You simply cannot overlook the No#1 most important thing (other than Ed's hands of course) in a signal chain, past the amp....the SPEAKERS USED. And, in this case, PROOF that Ed DID ABSOLUTELY USE JBLs to record VH1.
It's captain obvious anyway, when you compare both I to II that sizzle on I is gone on II. The JBLs weren't used on II.
Dude, just do yourself a favor (amp.chaser) and just spring for a pair of JBLs and throw em in a cab with modern GBs. I'd be floored if you don't agree that in person, right in front of your face, you've now solved a BIG part of the VHI sound.

I think we probably will never be sure of it but look at the video you can get that sizzle just by reorienting your mic the proper way… martin also speaks about someone having a van halen musem in pasadena he also says those weren’t used.

 

[311boogieman]

And the beat goes on....

 

[matttornado]

Everyone who nails the tone, (1,000s of people on YouTube alone) uses a stock PLEXI, variac and EQ. Everyone who tries the "secret pedal" or secret Hose mod(s) & claim to have found the secret, are so far off it's not even close.

 

[Amp_chaser]

Everyone who nails the tone, (1,000s of people on YouTube alone) uses a stock PLEXI, variac and EQ. Everyone who tries the "secret pedal" or secret Hose mod(s) & claim to have found the secret, are so far off it's not even close.

It seems these threads disturb people who believe it was stock, almost like a disturbance in the Force and it somehow compels them to click and mock those who don’t share that belief.

 

[Racerxrated]

I think we probably will never be sure of it but look at the video you can get that sizzle just by reorienting your mic the proper way… martin also speaks about someone having a van halen musem in pasadena he also says those weren’t used.

...And now you're just plain ignoring the ISO tracks that @harddriver posted????

Dude I appreciate your obsession and hard work with all of this, I really do....but cmon. Admit the obvious.
JBLs on VHI=Sizzle.
No JBLs on VHII=No Sizzle.
Solved.

 

[mentoneman]

the internet says
——
The source of the followings is the BBS at Plexi Palce.

(1) By Mark Cameron by pictures taken in the early 80'S.

There ARE small tone altering and/or gain altering mods.

I do have pic's so I CAN physically see that the amp has a split cathode arrangement.

...the cap on v2(330uf) cathode.

...its a 2.7k/.68 and the resistor looks like the stock part(but I don't think it is)but the cap is one of those yellow square type from the 70' Marshall's. From the circuit card It looks like it came stock with this arrangement. The post that is pressed in looks stock too witch tells me more than anyone could.In the pics the serial # is 12301.


(2) By Cerrem. 1980.

To try to wrap up is ED thing...

His head was a 67/68 and he had the first stage valve with BOTH cathodes tied together sharing the same 820 ohm resistor that was bypassed with a 330uF blue cap...

His treble cap was a round shaped ceramic that was a 250pF that said MURATA ... With 56K on the tone circuit feed..

One of the 470K mixer resistors was bypassed with a round hollow tubular MURATA cap 500pF... If memory serves me right on the value, or it was a 330pF..I will check my notes....

The real kicker, his phase-inverter "get-rid-of-the-FIZZIES" cap was a 100pF instead of the normal 47pF ....and this my friends is how the "brown sound" with that added compression happens..
Oh, BTW those 820 ohm resistors were carbon-comp and drifted in value up about 1.1K and make the amp much more gainy and warmer, since these re-bias the 12AX7 valves in a bit more non-linear region..

I am pretty sure the feedback resistor was a 47K ...I will have to check my notes...

The filter cap in the center of the board was a dual 16uF gray RS cap...

The screen filtering was 2 DALY 32uF light-blue caps in series... The voltage doubler were 2 100uF DALY royal-blue caps...

Rear cap on top of chassis was a royal-blue HUNTS 32uF or 16uF...need to check notes..

The value of the coupling cap between V1 and V2a....022uF.
At least that was what it was in 1980...

(3) Plaap (a friend of Peter Van Wheelden who restored Eddie's amp.)

Edwards amp's internal measurements were as follows:

1.The first 820 ohm resistor (carbon type) measured a little over 1K. It was bypassed with a blue 330uF resistor. can

2.His treble cap was a 250pF Murata flat ceramic one. The cap across his 470K was a Murata hollow round 330pF. cap

3.His second stage 820 ohm (which also measured a little over 1K, was also bypassed with the exact same type 330uF blue colored cap that was on the first cathode resistor.

4.The filtering caps for the middle of the board were gray colored RS caps that had dual 16uF values.

5.The screens were 2 blue caps in series (DALY 32uF's).

6.The voltage doubler were two big blue caps (100uF DALY's). The one on the outside was a blue Daly - and was a single 32uF.

7.The feedback resistor was a 47K of unknown origin.

8.His power transformer was the smaller one of that era. His OPT was also the smaller one with 1.5" stack.

The amp was either left stock into a load resistor or, a big Ohmite(or other) power resistor was placed somewhere in the circuit to cut the power of only the output stage meaning Sylvania 6CA7's were the only valves to hold up to this.

If this is true - doesent this kinda dispel the whole 'special' 67 slp 100 myth ...as almost all amps of that year had pretty much identical configurations (with the small exception of the 330uf cap on the second preamp stage?

Dankuwell !(dutch for many thanks)

Plaap
—-
at the end of the day 10 different guys will give you 10 ways to get there and they’d all be right if it sounded good.

the only unequivocal definitive “right” is EVH + original rig recorded at sunset sound by Donn Landee.

when i filmed Victor playing his Mojave amps at Plexi Palace 18 yrs ago he was the top vh brown tone dog imo. he placed my 57 mic on his cab on a floor stand angled up almost as vertically as the mic clip would allow. edge of gh30 dust cap.

dents in the aluminum dust cap doesn’t mean the speaker is blown. my altecs were dented and worked fine. i don’t know if the JBLs were close miced or not but just having them in the room bleed would have made a difference. i think there’s more than enough sizzle on a celestion miced straight on the dust cap.

 

[Cless357]

Just listen to the raw tracks ! It sounds like a dimed plexi ! The final album tone is made in the studio, there is nothing more to look for.

 

[harddriver]

The JBL thing has been a thing for heavy sounds in studios for a long, long time. Not just EVH

Morrisound famously used to combine them with marshalls and boogie cabs for some of their recordings

The idea is to fill in the EQ gaps of the greenbacks/blackbacks etc

I ran straight JBL120s in an old fender cab for a high gain rig for a long time

I tried mixing two original 16ohm JBL120F's ( which are hard to get in 16 ohm) in my greenback cab around 2009/10 and while they may sound great recorded and mixed I didn't care for them so I pulled them and sold them, but that doesn't negate that they were indeed used on the recording of VH1. As Racer and many have said as well as Friedman, Thorn, Ahsen the JBLD120F is probably were that extrat high end sizzle is coming from on VH1 that you don't hear on VHII. I have no problem agreeing with that conclusion.

 

[DanTravis62]

There were no jbl according to martin smith and i believe he is right it was probably two different greenbacks miced differently by Donn Landee’s different mic position. That was donn’s own secret technique… Martin did his own research and i fully agree with him.

Let’s just stop this now….

Do you even read the comments you reply to?

I don't give a shit about the EVH tone or martin smith. I was talking about morrisound studios and 120s for death metal recordings.

I'm not wasting my time with a fucking youtube video about the shidd pant tone

 

[harddriver]

Just listen to the raw tracks ! It sounds like a dimed plexi ! The final album tone is made in the studio, there is nothing more to look for.

Thats why I posted that Jose Atomica clip and Al Estrada's Suhr Modded Marshall SLP reissue modded to the Suhr/Friedman specs. The 2 gain stage circuit has all the intricate details only a cranked up 68 plexi has. The 3 gain stage Atomica has more gain, yet is more harsh and has lost some that plexi clank and sweetness that only heavily variaced two gain stage plexi's have IMHO. I will also mention all of Jim Gaustad's exhaustive research and work solidifies that it was a heavily variaced 2 gain stage plexi/superlead of which Mr. Ampchaser disagrees with and he is yet to provide a clip that best's all the clips that Jim Gaustad has posted and my conclusions parallel Gaustads's conclusions.

I have a Cameron LG/HG Jose 3 gain stage amp and it sounds totally different and responds different to my 68 plexi. The Cameron amp can do a decent gained up plexi tone but it sounds more like the Atomica clip, it harder dryer, tighter and doesn't replicate the squish, feel or clank of the 68 plexi. You either accept these facts or you don't.

You can hear the attriubtes of the plexi on Van Halen recordings, they are just there.

 

[Anje]

Agree harddriver, spot on to me.

 

[matttornado]

There's absolutely nothing magical about his tone. Yes, it sounds good for sure. Not going to argue that!
It's been copied easily, a million times, by just about anyone who can dial in the right amount of gain and Eq. Ed could have used a 2203 or a 70's Superlead and gotten similar results after the mastering and studio mixing was done.

 

[Amp_chaser]

the internet says
——
The source of the followings is the BBS at Plexi Palce.

(1) By Mark Cameron by pictures taken in the early 80'S.

There ARE small tone altering and/or gain altering mods.

I do have pic's so I CAN physically see that the amp has a split cathode arrangement.

...the cap on v2(330uf) cathode.

...its a 2.7k/.68 and the resistor looks like the stock part(but I don't think it is)but the cap is one of those yellow square type from the 70' Marshall's. From the circuit card It looks like it came stock with this arrangement. The post that is pressed in looks stock too witch tells me more than anyone could.In the pics the serial # is 12301.


(2) By Cerrem. 1980.

To try to wrap up is ED thing...

His head was a 67/68 and he had the first stage valve with BOTH cathodes tied together sharing the same 820 ohm resistor that was bypassed with a 330uF blue cap...

His treble cap was a round shaped ceramic that was a 250pF that said MURATA ... With 56K on the tone circuit feed..

One of the 470K mixer resistors was bypassed with a round hollow tubular MURATA cap 500pF... If memory serves me right on the value, or it was a 330pF..I will check my notes....

The real kicker, his phase-inverter "get-rid-of-the-FIZZIES" cap was a 100pF instead of the normal 47pF ....and this my friends is how the "brown sound" with that added compression happens..
Oh, BTW those 820 ohm resistors were carbon-comp and drifted in value up about 1.1K and make the amp much more gainy and warmer, since these re-bias the 12AX7 valves in a bit more non-linear region..

I am pretty sure the feedback resistor was a 47K ...I will have to check my notes...

The filter cap in the center of the board was a dual 16uF gray RS cap...

The screen filtering was 2 DALY 32uF light-blue caps in series... The voltage doubler were 2 100uF DALY royal-blue caps...

Rear cap on top of chassis was a royal-blue HUNTS 32uF or 16uF...need to check notes..

The value of the coupling cap between V1 and V2a....022uF.
At least that was what it was in 1980...

(3) Plaap (a friend of Peter Van Wheelden who restored Eddie's amp.)

Edwards amp's internal measurements were as follows:

1.The first 820 ohm resistor (carbon type) measured a little over 1K. It was bypassed with a blue 330uF resistor. can

2.His treble cap was a 250pF Murata flat ceramic one. The cap across his 470K was a Murata hollow round 330pF. cap

3.His second stage 820 ohm (which also measured a little over 1K, was also bypassed with the exact same type 330uF blue colored cap that was on the first cathode resistor.

4.The filtering caps for the middle of the board were gray colored RS caps that had dual 16uF values.

5.The screens were 2 blue caps in series (DALY 32uF's).

6.The voltage doubler were two big blue caps (100uF DALY's). The one on the outside was a blue Daly - and was a single 32uF.

7.The feedback resistor was a 47K of unknown origin.

8.His power transformer was the smaller one of that era. His OPT was also the smaller one with 1.5" stack.

The amp was either left stock into a load resistor or, a big Ohmite(or other) power resistor was placed somewhere in the circuit to cut the power of only the output stage meaning Sylvania 6CA7's were the only valves to hold up to this.

If this is true - doesent this kinda dispel the whole 'special' 67 slp 100 myth ...as almost all amps of that year had pretty much identical configurations (with the small exception of the 330uf cap on the second preamp stage?

Dankuwell !(dutch for many thanks)

Plaap
—-
at the end of the day 10 different guys will give you 10 ways to get there and they’d all be right if it sounded good.

the only unequivocal definitive “right” is EVH + original rig recorded at sunset sound by Donn Landee.

when i filmed Victor playing his Mojave amps at Plexi Palace 18 yrs ago he was the top vh brown tone dog imo. he placed my 57 mic on his cab on a floor stand angled up almost as vertically as the mic clip would allow. edge of gh30 dust cap.

dents in the aluminum dust cap doesn’t mean the speaker is blown. my altecs were dented and worked fine. i don’t know if the JBLs were close miced or not but just having them in the room bleed would have made a difference. i think there’s more than enough sizzle on a celestion miced straight on the dust cap.

And then Dave came along and disclosed the real values, and those guesses went straight in the bin… His values are correct for a stock SL68, it was probably like that when Ed bought it, but the board shows evidence of multiple component changes at the same turrets, which suggests that someone or multiple people were experimenting with different values in the same spots for years. The board of Ed’s amp is or was full of soldering flux…

I’m not saying you can’t get extremely close with a Super Lead, the Super Lead is the foundation of the amp, but it probably had many small tweaks, and some that were quite significant.

Also, why do you think Eddie needed a second head to reamp the first one? In some interviews, two amps were mentioned for the recording of VH1, but very few people point to that—even though Eddie himself mentions it in early interviews. He had a hot rod setup. Something not conventionnal at all.

Ok if you want to believe it were jbl then they were… i’ll let you with your beliefs and i will keep mine. There is nothing to win there.

 

[RaceU4her]

Mr Ampchaser threads never disappoint

I'd be curious to know what he would be saying in front of John Suhr for example, knowing John worked on Ed's amp in 90-92 when Ed wanted to "bring it back"; John has always said multiple times on record that the preamp was stock up until the output of the tonestack... just some particular components/specs combination from this particular era/batch of amps as they came from Marshall, and "one" small minor component variation for a slight bass boost on the treble channel. That's is. Done deal.
Actually I'd gladly pay to watch a live event of that conversation; let me grab a coffee

There’s video of Mike Soldano saying Eddie gave him “the Marshall” to retube and how excited he was to finally see the secret mods, and that it was the “most stock Marshall ever”, and it was the variac at 88 was the key. I was told by the experts here though that he was lying

 

[Amp_chaser]

There’s video of Mike Soldano saying Eddie gave him “the Marshall” to retube and how excited he was to finally see the secret mods, and that it was the “most stock Marshall ever”, and it was the variac at 88 was the key. I was told by the experts here though that he was lying

Eddie, despite going to see Mike Soldano, had techs at home who could have brought the amp back to stock, or maybe it was returned to stock after VH2, since he said he didn’t like that tone because it had too many mids and was too bright. I tend to believe the latter.

In fact, you can get close to the Women and Children First to 1984 tones with a stock Super Lead, but VH1 and VH2 are much, much harder to replicate.

You also have to remember that there were multiple albums and the tone evolves. But VH1 and VH2 are the real oddballs, especially VH1.

The Van Halen tone isn’t just one specific sound. You’re really talking about different eras: VH1, VH2, or Women and Children First through 1984. A lot of people think Eddie’s tone is only the later on, but it’s not.

Here’s what I believe:

• VH1: fully modded amp
• VH2: a revised version of those mods with some tweaks
• Women and Children First to 1984: mostly a stock Super Lead with a slight mismatched resistive load (around 24 ohms, if I remember correctly)

The amp may have been brought back to stock, while José Arredondo and Eddie developed a new one. That could be the amp briefly shown in Eddie’s studio for a couple of seconds in the promotional video for the EVH Frankenstein replica a large, black, unbranded two-input head. In the clip, Eddie plays it in front of Chip Ellis.

I contacted Fender EVH about it, and they told me it wasn’t one of their designs.

What i’m looking for is the early tone vh1 and 2 i don’t care about the later one because anyone can replicate it…

 

[harddriver]

There’s video of Mike Soldano saying Eddie gave him “the Marshall” to retube and how excited he was to finally see the secret mods, and that it was the “most stock Marshall ever”, and it was the variac at 88 was the key. I was told by the experts here though that he was lying

Yep, I guess Mike Soldano is a piker too....................I understand the Friedman specs and they really aren't adding anything secret over what a bone stock 68 plexi specs can give you with exception of the 50K pot, some people like the 330uf cap on V2 and some don't you have to decide for yourself what you like. Which is why Ed's tone was not that much different when he had to finish the 78 tour without all of his personal amps, from July 1 1978 to December 1978 due to Pam Am losing them after the Japan leg of the tour, all this is well documented in prior posts.

 

[VonBonfire]

The obsession over this stuff to the level I'm seeing here is like the kind of argument you'd hear two patients in an insane asylum having.

 

[Anje]

Eddie, despite going to see Mike Soldano, had techs at home who could have brought the amp back to stock, or maybe it was returned to stock after VH2, since he said he didn’t like that tone because it had too many mids and was too bright. I tend to believe the latter.

In fact, you can get close to the Women and Children First to 1984 tones with a stock Super Lead, but VH1 and VH2 are much, much harder to replicate.

You also have to remember that there were multiple albums and the tone evolves. But VH1 and VH2 are the real oddballs, especially VH1.

The Van Halen tone isn’t just one specific sound. You’re really talking about different eras: VH1, VH2, or Women and Children First through 1984. A lot of people think Eddie’s tone is only the later on, but it’s not.

Here’s what I believe:

• VH1: fully modded amp
• VH2: a revised version of those mods with some tweaks
• Women and Children First to 1984: mostly a stock Super Lead with a slight mismatched resistive load (around 24 ohms, if I remember correctly)

The amp may have been brought back to stock, while José Arredondo and Eddie developed a new one. That could be the amp briefly shown in Eddie’s studio for a couple of seconds in the promotional video for the EVH Frankenstein replica a large, black, unbranded two-input head. In the clip, Eddie plays it in front of Chip Ellis.

I contacted Fender EVH about it, and they told me it wasn’t one of their designs.

What i’m looking for is the early tone vh1 and 2 i don’t care about the later one because anyone can replicate it…

So Mike S & John S, among others, who have had both experiences dating back to the 70's on those old amps, AND have actually seen Ed and his amp IN PERSON back in the 80's / early 90's, are both lying / wrong?

You keep coming back with the same ungrounded fantasies while ignoring the simple evidences & facts presented to you by so many and respected references on the subject matter.
I thought we were done?