IR Questions

[Sick Michael]

CAVEAT: So Im very late to the game with this, I finally got around to using an IR loader. I downloaded some free ones from the internet - a variety of 4x12 cabs and speakers.

Am I right on this?....I get the impression these are for recording artists who want to quickly and accurately replicate the sound of a cabinet of their choice on a record? If thats it, fine, so be it, I get it.

BUT I tried with playing through full range speakers. I really dont like this. Theres a boxy-ness, the highs are all rolled off, and theres a latency....it doesnt feel right. I've had a much more fulfilling experience just using an EQ. Im not sure Id want to ever use these in a live environment.

 

[tjnx]

what's your whole signal chain? depending on your setup you can improve the latency. but yeah you have to play around / mix them a bit, in my experience I rarely nail it right off the bat.

the paid ones are generally better than the free but you'll still need to try a bunch

 

[Sick Michael]

I think its taking me a while to get over the "feel" of it. I just recorded some bits with a G12h30 IR and it sounds righteous on the recording.

Its the wierdness....it could be a "me" problem

 

[cobrahead1030]

I was pretty late to the game as well. I like the stock IR’s on my Suhr unit well enough to stick with those. After a bit of time & effort, they record very nicely.

I still don’t love the way they feel playing through my monitors & recording setup. It isn’t horrible, and it does allow me to use a couple of amps that would otherwise sit & collect dust most of the time. I run a plugin to add some delay & reverb which helps a little. It’s a bit of a compromise I’ve learned to live with.

I could see sending an IR signal to FOH rather than mic’ing a cab, but I’d still need the cab onstage to be happy in a live situation.

 

[Dave L]

Yeah, it´s a big difference only hearing your amp thru the PA or studio monitors (whether it´s from a mic and a whole recording chain or an IR that has all that in it already) instead of hearing the amp straight up in the room/on stage.

 

[DanTravis62]

You have discovered why using a modeler live is an endless tweaking and knob twiddling exercise.

The good news is, once you get it dialed in relatively well, its good and you don't need to touch it.

I love IRs for recording, but for live I just vastly prefer a legit amp

 

[Sick Michael]

You have discovered why using a modeler live is an endless tweaking and knob twiddling exercise.

The good news is, once you get it dialed in relatively well, its good and you don't need to touch it.

I love IRs for recording, but for live I just vastly prefer a legit amp

yeah, this is exactly how Im feeling about this. At the moment, I dont know how people use IRs live, though I believe some do. And Im not quite there with the modeller stuff, I'd need tubes and pedals.

 

[DanTravis62]

yeah, this is exactly how Im feeling about this. At the moment, I dont know how people use IRs live, though I believe some do. And Im not quite there with the modeller stuff, I'd need tubes and pedals.

The answer is actually really simple

Very, very few people use modelers live with a FRFR or something like that

They either have incredible sound reinforcement and excellent monitoring (like, adam jones style in that tool thread where he has SIX fucking wedges surrounding him on stage) which helps make the IRs feel more like an amp in the room.... or....

They are turning the IRs off and using a power amp and a cabinet.... which, at that point you might as well use a real amp anyways

This is the same for IR loading pedals like the Suhr, Torpedo, or Boss - people generally use it as a split send from their amp return for something to send to the FOH in addition to their amp setup, OR they have incredible sound reinforcement and a million monitors and a dedicated, excellent sound guy

That's quite literally the only way that people make this work. 8/10 times there's someone on TGP or even here that's like "yeah man I use IRs and a modeler on stage always now" they are playing at their local church or something where the sound reinforcement situation never fucking moves or changes, or they are lucky enough to only play theaters and 500+ capacity clubs where the PA is incredible every night.

In the real world, where musicians are in the trenches playing lower paying gigs with sub-optimal sound reinforcement, that's not how it works.

If you put enough effort into the IR thing you CAN make it work (and sound quite good) but you will replace all the amp/cabinet loadout with extra PA and monitoring loadout and it's a wash.

 

[Sick Michael]

The answer is actually really simple

Very, very few people use modelers live with a FRFR or something like that

They either have incredible sound reinforcement and excellent monitoring (like, adam jones style in that tool thread where he has SIX fucking wedges surrounding him on stage) which helps make the IRs feel more like an amp in the room.... or....

They are turning the IRs off and using a power amp and a cabinet.... which, at that point you might as well use a real amp anyways

This is the same for IR loading pedals like the Suhr, Torpedo, or Boss - people generally use it as a split send from their amp return for something to send to the FOH in addition to their amp setup, OR they have incredible sound reinforcement and a million monitors and a dedicated, excellent sound guy

That's quite literally the only way that people make this work. 8/10 times there's someone on TGP or even here that's like "yeah man I use IRs and a modeler on stage always now" they are playing at their local church or something where the sound reinforcement situation never fucking moves or changes, or they are lucky enough to only play theaters and 500+ capacity clubs where the PA is incredible every night.

In the real world, where musicians are in the trenches playing lower paying gigs with sub-optimal sound reinforcement, that's not how it works.

If you put enough effort into the IR thing you CAN make it work (and sound quite good) but you will replace all the amp/cabinet loadout with extra PA and monitoring loadout and it's a wash.

Interesting, I could easily imaging if you were using these IRs live, you'd get lost in the mix very quickly. Like when I switch back and forth between (mainly) analogue pedal board/amp and analogue board/IR, its like theres a blanket over the speaker, and it feels like the whole thing is choking, when Im using the IR.

 

[DanTravis62]

Interesting, I could easily imaging if you were using these IRs live, you'd get lost in the mix very quickly. Like when I switch back and forth between (mainly) analogue pedal board/amp and analogue board/IR, its like theres a blanket over the speaker, and it feels like the whole thing is choking, when Im using the IR.

It's just the difference from an "in the room" tone vs a close miced up tone that you're hearing. They sound exactly as good as the IRs that you are using, because the IRs are exactly the same as the close miced signal; the rub is, you have to set everything up correctly, have the right gear, and use the right IR for the tone you're going for in the first place.

People are very choosy about their IRs. Once they find ones that they like, they tend to stick with them. I would suggest the torpedo wall of sound as a good starting point but theres tons of good ones.

 

[Sick Michael]

It's just the difference from an "in the room" tone vs a close miced up tone that you're hearing. They sound exactly as good as the IRs that you are using, because the IRs are exactly the same as the close miced signal; the rub is, you have to set everything up correctly, have the right gear, and use the right IR for the tone you're going for in the first place.

People are very choosy about their IRs. Once they find ones that they like, they tend to stick with them. I would suggest the torpedo wall of sound as a good starting point but theres tons of good ones.

Thats the thing man, it sounds like shit in the room, but recorded it sounds class. Im so conflicted haha

 

[DanTravis62]

Thats the thing man, it sounds like shit in the room, but recorded it sounds class. Im so conflicted haha

Yeah that's totally normal. It just takes a while to get used to them sounding different.

If you give yourself some acclimation time you can slowly make the in the room sound better.

 

[Dave L]

Another thing I´ve noticed is that once you start scrolling thru IRs, they all sound like ass after a while. Your ear is so, so quick to latch on to the midrange content, that even though they sound fine on their own terms they all fall into scoopy/fizzy or boxy/dull when you start hearing them all back to back to back. Even the one you started with, once you circle back to it.

I´d suggest to pick one for the occasion and work with that one.

 

[SFW]

The IRs sounding dull is exactly what you want in a live situation. Once the fletcher Munson effect hits with a loud PA, that dull sounding IR suddenly sounds huge with teeth and thump. It takes a minute to wrap your head around it. Once you do, you discover that using IRs live brings a consistency to your live sound, it's hard to stop using them.

 

[Jakem]

I have really liked York Audio and ML Sound Lab IRs; my current favorite is the YA Marshall M25 pack and Mix01 and Mix02 from it especially. When using quad cortex I usually cut some lows and highs and add some room reverb. Monitoring is via Genelec G3s.

 

[Tone Monster]

I freakin LOVE IRs! So easy and consistent

 

[cardinal]

It's definitely just kinda weird. If I have to us IRs to practice etc, I prefer headphones to monitors for some reason.

And the right IR makes a huge difference. I like the Ownhammers. They have mixes for things like Full or Natural (I forget the names now) that do a reasonable job of getting closer to a bigger room sound than a single SM57 could.

 

[Zado]

You have discovered why using a modeler live is an endless tweaking and knob twiddling exercise.

The answer is actually really simple

Very, very few people use modelers live with a FRFR or something like that

They either have incredible sound reinforcement and excellent monitoring (like, adam jones style in that tool thread where he has SIX fucking wedges surrounding him on stage) which helps make the IRs feel more like an amp in the room.... or....

They are turning the IRs off and using a power amp and a cabinet.... which, at that point you might as well use a real amp anyways

This is the same for IR loading pedals like the Suhr, Torpedo, or Boss - people generally use it as a split send from their amp return for something to send to the FOH in addition to their amp setup, OR they have incredible sound reinforcement and a million monitors and a dedicated, excellent sound guy

That's quite literally the only way that people make this work. 8/10 times there's someone on TGP or even here that's like "yeah man I use IRs and a modeler on stage always now" they are playing at their local church or something where the sound reinforcement situation never fucking moves or changes, or they are lucky enough to only play theaters and 500+ capacity clubs where the PA is incredible every night.

In the real world, where musicians are in the trenches playing lower paying gigs with sub-optimal sound reinforcement, that's not how it works.

If you put enough effort into the IR thing you CAN make it work (and sound quite good) but you will replace all the amp/cabinet loadout with extra PA and monitoring loadout and it's a wash.

Oooook? I had no idea the IR thing was this messy, honestly. Have a couple of friends who are giggin with (quite cheap I believe) modelers, and always looked pleased with the results. I used to play in a band with one of them, he had a Mooer modeler and I had an Orange amp; his sounds were nothing special really, but worked like a champ as he cut like hell - likely due to the complete lack of bass frequencies.
I was thinking about an IR loader to pair with my board and go into PA, but had no idea the struggle with IRs was real.

 

[DanTravis62]

Oooook? I had no idea the IR thing was this messy, honestly. Have a couple of friends who are giggin with (quite cheap I believe) modelers, and always looked pleased with the results. I used to play in a band with one of them, he had a Mooer modeler and I had an Orange amp; his sounds were nothing special really, but worked like a champ as he cut like hell - likely due to the complete lack of bass frequencies.
I was thinking about an IR loader to pair with my board and go into PA, but had no idea the struggle with IRs was real.

It can totally work if you play gigs that consistently have really good PAs

But if you play smaller venues, this is one of those things that internet guitar forums never talk about

They always act like it's so simple! You just plug a cable from the IR loader to the mixer and you're done! ahahaha good luck with that.

While it can be really convenient and it can be excellent in the right situation, IRs are completely dependent on stuff that is out of your control once you show up to the gig. If you're the type of person that can live with that? Might work.

 

[Zado]

It can totally work if you play gigs that consistently have really good PAs

But if you play smaller venues, this is one of those things that internet guitar forums never talk about

They always act like it's so simple! You just plug a cable from the IR loader to the mixer and you're done! ahahaha good luck with that.

While it can be really convenient and it can be excellent in the right situation, IRs are completely dependent on stuff that is out of your control once you show up to the gig. If you're the type of person that can live with that? Might work.

Eh, no, the times when I could afford to gig proper size locations are long gone, nowadays are small pubs or town fests at best. So yeah, pretty horrible PAs (if any). But you're right, when looking for modeler/IR related threads in forums you mostly (like, 90% of the times) find comments about the pros; the only cons are on the tones not being always on par with tube amps, "but hey, that's a fine trade for maximum portability and 100% bona fide the fancy tones you made at home with you high end stuff". Which makes em so apparently enticing: you make youself comfy at home, fiddle here and there with the well tested IR your got from the usual internet guy, save and there you go, all the sounds you need for the next gig. But yeah, sounded too good to be true. Might be the reason why I've seen a substantial amp comeback lately, at any level.