IR Questions

[Sick Michael]

ok, I've been playing with it a bit more this afternoon.....Im slowly understanding this a bit better....and Im eq-ing them a bit which is helping. Thanks for all the suggestions and comments everyone

 

[DanTravis62]

Eh, no, the times when I could afford to gig proper size locations are long gone, nowadays are small pubs or town fests at best. So yeah, pretty horrible PAs (if any). But you're right, when looking for modeler/IR related threads in forums you mostly (like, 90% of the times) find comments about the pros; the only cons are on the tones not being always on par with tube amps, "but hey, that's a fine trade for maximum portability and 100% bona fide the fancy tones you made at home with you high end stuff". Which makes em so apparently enticing: you make youself comfy at home, fiddle here and there with the well tested IR your got from the usual internet guy, save and there you go, all the sounds you need for the next gig. But yeah, sounded too good to be true. Might be the reason why I've seen a substantial amp comeback lately, at any level.

Just to be clear, I have a kemper which I absolutely love - and I have gigged it a bunch

I like modelers. I think IRs are amazingly useful.

But modeler/IR fanboys never get into the real world cons of gigging with one, and the people who hate modelers just say, as you said

the only cons are on the tones not being always on par with tube amps,

I bring this up in basically any thread about them because i did the EXACT thing you are talking about - I dropped my entire amp, rack and cabinets for the kemper by itself.

Wanna guess what happened? That's right, it was great at the giant gigs with professional PAs and terrible at all the small clubs, wineries, and park/festival type gigs. In fact, there was a handful of gigs where I had to borrow another guy's amp because there wasn't enough channels, monitoring, etc.

 

[cardinal]

Yeah I use a modeler 99% of the time, but with a power amp and cab unless I need something miked up. Then an Ownhammer IR is going to be way better than whatever miked tone my dumbass could come up with.

 

[Techdeth]

I think its taking me a while to get over the "feel" of it. I just recorded some bits with a G12h30 IR and it sounds righteous on the recording.

Its the wierdness....it could be a "me" problem

It’s odd af and I don’t like it either . But try putting it with some drums or a mix and see how it sounds to ya .

 

[Jakem]

I am eagerly waiting to try out my 2 new tube heads thru the Suhr Reactive Load IR. Uploaded the desired IRs to the Suhr already.

 

[Zado]

Just to be clear, I have a kemper which I absolutely love - and I have gigged it a bunch

I like modelers. I think IRs are amazingly useful.

But modeler/IR fanboys never get into the real world cons of gigging with one, and the people who hate modelers just say, as you said


I bring this up in basically any thread about them because i did the EXACT thing you are talking about - I dropped my entire amp, rack and cabinets for the kemper by itself.

Wanna guess what happened? That's right, it was great at the giant gigs with professional PAs and terrible at all the small clubs, wineries, and park/festival type gigs. In fact, there was a handful of gigs where I had to borrow another guy's amp because there wasn't enough channels, monitoring, etc.

Kudos, never seen such unbiased and honest opinion about the matter in any forum. Thanks, really, i totally got what you mean

 

[SFW]

Eh, no, the times when I could afford to gig proper size locations are long gone, nowadays are small pubs or town fests at best. So yeah, pretty horrible PAs (if any). But you're right, when looking for modeler/IR related threads in forums you mostly (like, 90% of the times) find comments about the pros; the only cons are on the tones not being always on par with tube amps, "but hey, that's a fine trade for maximum portability and 100% bona fide the fancy tones you made at home with you high end stuff". Which makes em so apparently enticing: you make youself comfy at home, fiddle here and there with the well tested IR your got from the usual internet guy, save and there you go, all the sounds you need for the next gig. But yeah, sounded too good to be true. Might be the reason why I've seen a substantial amp comeback lately, at any level.

There is absolutely a trade off when using a modeler for gigs. You are at the complete mercy of the "sound engineer." And in my experience, mercy is usually not given. lol! Usually, they just push the faders up and walk away. So, it you can't make quick adjustments to your gear (i.e. not taking the time to learn how to tweak on the fly) then it's off to the valley of suck for the night. When I gig with y QC, there is a perimetric EQ in the last block of my signal chain. Typically, a quick notch between 4k and 6k will take the ice pick off the tone and dial in the room. I have noticed when I make the sound guy actually mic up a cab, they tend to actually turn knobs to make it work. That's just my experience as a local bar band guitar player...

 

[romanianreaper]

I had an AxeFx-II years ago and loved playing it and sounded killer thru my computer and on recordings.

I ended up doing this rabbit hole and got an Xitone 1x12 FRFR cab, Friedman ASM-12 FRFR cab and Fender FRFR 1x12. Never got a sound that I was happy with standing in front of them.

There is this power amp to cab thing that I think guitarists are just used to and love. I have heard that the Laney FRFR cabs sound like a guitar and people seem to be super pleased with them.

I can't bring myself to go back into that rabbit hole again anytime soon, lol. But I'm sure I'll cave one day. My bass player talked about going direct but for distorted guitars, just not the best choice.

 

[Rottweiler]

Just to be clear, I have a kemper which I absolutely love - and I have gigged it a bunch

I like modelers. I think IRs are amazingly useful.

But modeler/IR fanboys never get into the real world cons of gigging with one, and the people who hate modelers just say, as you said


I bring this up in basically any thread about them because i did the EXACT thing you are talking about - I dropped my entire amp, rack and cabinets for the kemper by itself.

Wanna guess what happened? That's right, it was great at the giant gigs with professional PAs and terrible at all the small clubs, wineries, and park/festival type gigs. In fact, there was a handful of gigs where I had to borrow another guy's amp because there wasn't enough channels, monitoring, etc.

How do the wine moms handle the BRUtalz?

 

[itsme]

IR’s don’t and won’t sound like a real speaker. You have to accept what they are. A digital simulation of one.

 

[Shask]

I had an AxeFx-II years ago and loved playing it and sounded killer thru my computer and on recordings.

I ended up doing this rabbit hole and got an Xitone 1x12 FRFR cab, Friedman ASM-12 FRFR cab and Fender FRFR 1x12. Never got a sound that I was happy with standing in front of them.

There is this power amp to cab thing that I think guitarists are just used to and love. I have heard that the Laney FRFR cabs sound like a guitar and people seem to be super pleased with them.

I can't bring myself to go back into that rabbit hole again anytime soon, lol. But I'm sure I'll cave one day. My bass player talked about going direct but for distorted guitars, just not the best choice.

That is part of the problem. You need 4x the $$ of stuff to make it sound like the simple amp, lol. At what point is it just easier to use the amp?

It seems like it works best for people looking for a variety of tones. For someone like me who uses like 1-2 tones, it just gets silly.

 

[romanianreaper]

That is part of the problem. You need 4x the $$ of stuff to make it sound like the simple amp, lol. At what point is it just easier to use the amp?

It seems like it works best for people looking for a variety of tones. For someone like me who uses like 1-2 tones, it just gets silly.

Lol, exactly. I think a lot of us get sucked in but you are right, how many amp tones will I actually use?

 

[Shask]

Lol, exactly. I think a lot of us get sucked in but you are right, how many amp tones will I actually use?

I have kind of been thinking about a lot of stuff like that lately. Like, with effects units for example. I have all the modelers and rack units and everything else, and like 98% of the time I just use them for an always on Reverb and Delay. It would make more sense for me to just use a Delay/Reverb pedal because I am not making presets or changing settings or anything. That is far more simple, and cheaper.

I have been thinking about simplifying a lot of stuff like that.

I still like my Synergy stuff though. Not really because I want a bunch of tones, but more because I like to mix it up as my mood changes.

 

[Rottweiler]

I have kind of been thinking about a lot of stuff like that lately. Like, with effects units for example. I have all the modelers and rack units and everything else, and like 98% of the time I just use them for an always on Reverb and Delay. It would make more sense for me to just use a Delay/Reverb pedal because I am not making presets or changing settings or anything. That is far more simple, and cheaper.

I have been thinking about simplifying a lot of stuff like that.

I still like my Synergy stuff though. Not really because I want a bunch of tones, but more because I like to mix it up as my mood changes.

I went through a modeler thing with the pod, the xt, and the xt live 20 years or so ago. I came to the exact same conclusion. I just dig my tube amps. They feel so much more immediate and don't mask sloppy playing / muting, not to mention the pick attack response. I understand the tech has come a long way in 20 years. I still own a THR 30 but it has the same issues, just better than the older stuff. It still irked me enough that I set up a GPDI/IR as my practice rig. Also like you stated earlier, for 35 years, I normally gravitate to the JTM, JMP, JCM sounds 95% of the time.

 

[Shask]

I went through a modeler thing with the pod, the xt, and the xt live 20 years or so ago. I came to the exact same conclusion. I just dig my tube amps. They feel so much more immediate and don't mask sloppy playing / muting, not to mention the pick attack response. I understand the tech has come a long way in 20 years. I still own a THR 30 but it has the same issues, just better than the older stuff. It still irked me enough that I set up a GPDI/IR as my practice rig. Also like you stated earlier, for 35 years, I normally gravitate to the JTM, JMP, JCM sounds 95% of the time.

I have had people arguing with me all week because I talk about the pick attack and dynamics being changed by ADA conversion, and people say I am crazy because they dont notice any difference.

I actually do like digital, but I dont like to mix my analog and digital. If I am using tubes, I want everything to be analog dry through. If I am using digital, then I want it all digital in the box. I have been super impressed with NAM and ToneX lately. Best sounding/feeling digital at the moment. Much snappier, more immediate feel than many of the other technologies. I actually cleaned up some mods tonight in my 2203 clone because I am getting ready to take NAM captures of it.

And in the spirit of this thread, I find playing direct with IRs got WAY better when I started mixing my own IRs. Buy a big pack from somewhere like York, and then use software to mix the mics to your own preference and export as new IRs. I like to mix in some room mic to get some of that distance "in the room" sound baked into the IR.

Yeah, I have been thinking a lot lately about what is fun to play with vs what I actually use.

 

[Zado]

There is absolutely a trade off when using a modeler for gigs. You are at the complete mercy of the "sound engineer." And in my experience, mercy is usually not given. lol! Usually, they just push the faders up and walk away. So, it you can't make quick adjustments to your gear (i.e. not taking the time to learn how to tweak on the fly) then it's off to the valley of suck for the night. When I gig with y QC, there is a perimetric EQ in the last block of my signal chain. Typically, a quick notch between 4k and 6k will take the ice pick off the tone and dial in the room. I have noticed when I make the sound guy actually mic up a cab, they tend to actually turn knobs to make it work. That's just my experience as a local bar band guitar player...

100% agree, you're litterally in the hands of the devil himself, and he's either evil enough to hide you in the mix for no reason, or (which is worse) he's a creative genius (in his mind) and he makes you disappear cause he's actually an incompetent cuck. Even with my amps I struggled in the past, but with some knob fiddlin on the amp and the pedalboard I somehow sorted things out. I had no idea with modelers/IRs things could be worse, I was dumb enough to think "I have my sounds already, the mixer guy will just leave things as is, my toan's purfect already". But you really have even less control over your sound.

 

[DanTravis62]

I have kind of been thinking about a lot of stuff like that lately. Like, with effects units for example. I have all the modelers and rack units and everything else, and like 98% of the time I just use them for an always on Reverb and Delay. It would make more sense for me to just use a Delay/Reverb pedal because I am not making presets or changing settings or anything. That is far more simple, and cheaper.

This is literally why I switched from a full rack and W/D setup to a simple pedalboard with the flight time

100% agree, you're litterally in the hands of the devil himself, and he's either evil enough to hide you in the mix for no reason, or (which is worse) he's a creative genius (in his mind) and he makes you disappear cause he's actually an incompetent cuck. Even with my amps I struggled in the past, but with some knob fiddlin on the amp and the pedalboard I somehow sorted things out. I had no idea with modelers/IRs things could be worse, I was dumb enough to think "I have my sounds already, the mixer guy will just leave things as is, my toan's purfect already". But you really have even less control over your sound.

You're completely at the mercy of the sound engineer.

Which, theoretically could be GREAT if you are playing big gigs with a great soundman and really nice PA.... so, how often does that happen?

 

[nightlight]

If you put enough effort into the IR thing you CAN make it work (and sound quite good) but you will replace all the amp/cabinet loadout with extra PA and monitoring loadout and it's a wash.

Not necessarily Dan. It's quite easy to hook up a Two Notes Cab M+ in between your amp and your speaker and then feed the FOH with that sound while having your amp run into your cab just like it always does. Just one piece of extra gear, and it's stompbox sized.

 

[DanTravis62]

Not necessarily Dan. It's quite easy to hook up a Two Notes Cab M+ in between your amp and your speaker and then feed the FOH with that sound while having your amp run into your cab just like it always does. Just one piece of extra gear, and it's stompbox sized.

No. the point remains the same - if you know (in advance) you are playing a gig that is big enough to have a nice PA and you can get away with it, there's no reason to have the amp and cab in the first place.

Conversely, If you show up to a gig and it doesn't have a nice enough PA to support you with just a modeler (or a preamp plus a stompbox like the cab M as you mentioned) then you are going to need an amp either way.

Something like the cab M is a great piece of gear to give you some versatility if you are going to be playing gigs of wildly different room and venue sizes, but that's a rather rare and very specific situation, as I'm sure literally every single person who has experience gigging will attest. The problem is, it's just as "stompbox sized" as an sm57 and a big XLR cord, and the soundman is more likely to know what to do with the sm57.

This is the crux of the issue IRs and modelers face, and i'm trying to explain - you very, very rarely know in advance exactly how nice the PA and sound setup is going to be if you are actually out gigging and touring.

Either

1. You are playing small gigs in dive bars, small clubs, small outdoor festivals, or wineries (IE less than 100 people) and it's going to be impossible to make it work with an IR setup or a modeler. This is the vast majority of gigging guitar players, of all genres.

Or

2. You are going to be playing large clubs, small theaters, and places that you know the PA is going to be great, and you will have a dedicated soundman on hand. This isn't unheard of, but your band has to be at a pretty high level, you are bringing and running your own sound, or you aren't gigging at all but playing the same place (IE Church Worship etc) and you know exactly what the PA is going to be.


That's fine if you would rather take the Cab M+ as a "backup" or "auxiliary" device to have around. But to be sure you would be able to use it AT ALL means you would be bringing the PA too, which is the point youre commenting on.