Metro 68 Plexi series 12 vid

[degenaro]

I agree.

Also Brother Ed, I chose the Mesa boogie MKIV because the gain stages and EQ section are setup differently then the tremoverb. It seems to me that you always play marshall based amps and the tremoverb is nothing more then a beefed up Soldano / Marshall. I know why you can get it to sound similar because you kind of tone is in the amp. Tube technology hasn't changed since the 50's. so its easy to see why certain tones can be achived on different amps. My statement still hold true. if you can get my Boogie with the gain setup on 8 with teh graphic eq dumped in the mids to hone like your Marshalls or THD then you would have proved something to me.,

For the record, I hear differences in tone between EVH's Marshall and his 5150 tones, between Nunos Marshall and ada Tone and between Warren D's first album tone to the second albums tone between every Lynch album. They are completely different tones but the technique is the same and that is what seperates the player.

I think this has been beaten to death and IMHO, its a combination of the parts that gets you the end result
~R~

We're going in circles...I'll leave it at this. I can grab an acoustic and make music, plug a Strat into a DI into the board, plug into the amp, yada, yada, yada. Take the player away from the instrument and you have? NOTHING. No player no tone. That's where it ALL starts.
The guy that hired me for the Guitar Hero 3 game knows me for about 8 years now. He's lik you in terms o his gear beliefs. however he's making one concession, he calls me "the equalizer", since eerything I have sent him, or h has tracked with me in room through any of his amps sounds the same.

Ed! I was just thinking the same thing lol! I was reading this entire thread saying that we are going in circles.
I guess this is the gear/musical equivalent of the question of what came first the chicken or the egg

It is...

 

[Zachman]

It is good for the exchange of ideas

Of course, because physics is physics... The sonic characteristics of gear is well documented. The guys that want to argue that tone is in the fingers, are WRONG. Technique is in the fingers. IF what I'm saying isn't true, then the same player playing through any given piece of equipment would sound the same, and I'm not talking stylistically. I'm saying a Utah speaker vs a JBL, or Altec, or whatever wouldn't make a difference and it does make a difference. I don't care how gifted someone is, they are NOT going to get a less efficient speaker to produce frequencies (you know, the stuff that tone is made of) of a MORE efficient speaker. (That goes for amps, fx etc...)

See I have an issue when folks tell me that I' "WRONG". I do this shit for a living, so no offense I kinda get my back up when I get to deal with people tell me wrong.

No worries, but any engineer that would argue that tech specs don't matter is either deaf or just being argumentative. I don't do this shit for a living anymore, but did... like you for Radio, TV, session work, and live, but I acknowledge that different gear sounds different, irrespective of the player. I think the problem is that those who are arguing from a zero sum standpoint are just out of gas, because it ALL matters.

 

[Greazygeo]

It is good for the exchange of ideas

Of course, because physics is physics... The sonic characteristics of gear is well documented. The guys that want to argue that tone is in the fingers, are WRONG. Technique is in the fingers. IF what I'm saying isn't true, then the same player playing through any given piece of equipment would sound the same, and I'm not talking stylistically. I'm saying a Utah speaker vs a JBL, or Altec, or whatever wouldn't make a difference and it does make a difference. I don't care how gifted someone is, they are NOT going to get a less efficient speaker to produce frequencies (you know, the stuff that tone is made of) of a MORE efficient speaker. (That goes for amps, fx etc...)

The guys arguing that they sound the same on any given amp are likely trying to dial in one amp compared to the next in a similar fashion, or they wouldn't have to adjust any of the tone knobs, no matter where they are set and they'd sound the same. Since that ISN'T true, neither is the assertion that gear is so irrelavant

Then try this....set up your rig and record a riff or lick etc, hand the guitar to buddy using the smae exact settings and have him play the same exact thing and record him....post them up and lets see if the tone is the same.

That should be pretty simple right?

 

[Zachman]

It is good for the exchange of ideas

Of course, because physics is physics... The sonic characteristics of gear is well documented. The guys that want to argue that tone is in the fingers, are WRONG. Technique is in the fingers. IF what I'm saying isn't true, then the same player playing through any given piece of equipment would sound the same, and I'm not talking stylistically. I'm saying a Utah speaker vs a JBL, or Altec, or whatever wouldn't make a difference and it does make a difference. I don't care how gifted someone is, they are NOT going to get a less efficient speaker to produce frequencies (you know, the stuff that tone is made of) of a MORE efficient speaker. (That goes for amps, fx etc...)

The guys arguing that they sound the same on any given amp are likely trying to dial in one amp compared to the next in a similar fashion, or they wouldn't have to adjust any of the tone knobs, no matter where they are set and they'd sound the same. Since that ISN'T true, neither is the assertion that gear is so irrelavant

Then try this....set up your rig and record a riff or lick etc, hand the guitar to buddy using the smae exact settings and have him play the same exact thing and record him....post them up and lets see if the tone is the same.

That should be pretty simple right?

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

 

[degenaro]

It is good for the exchange of ideas

Of course, because physics is physics... The sonic characteristics of gear is well documented. The guys that want to argue that tone is in the fingers, are WRONG. Technique is in the fingers. IF what I'm saying isn't true, then the same player playing through any given piece of equipment would sound the same, and I'm not talking stylistically. I'm saying a Utah speaker vs a JBL, or Altec, or whatever wouldn't make a difference and it does make a difference. I don't care how gifted someone is, they are NOT going to get a less efficient speaker to produce frequencies (you know, the stuff that tone is made of) of a MORE efficient speaker. (That goes for amps, fx etc...)

See I have an issue when folks tell me that I' "WRONG". I do this shit for a living, so no offense I kinda get my back up when I get to deal with people tell me wrong.

No worries, but any engineer that would argue that tech specs don't matter is either deaf or just being argumentative. I don't do this shit for a living anymore, but did... like you for Radio, TV, session work, and live, but I acknowledge that different gear sounds different, irrespective of the player. I think the problem is that those who are arguing from a zero sum standpoint are just out of gas, because it ALL matters.

I'm not talking as a player. I'm talking THD.

 

[Zachman]

I'm not talking as a player. I'm talking THD.

OK, then why would someone spend more $$$ on a THD, assuming their level of proficiency, then say a pignose, if tone is in the fingers? Just saying THD's have a sound, feel and character or am I incorrect??? I know I'm right because I've played them, w/ you at NAMM and at Tone Merchants and own some THD products (Hot Plates) for that reason.

It seems to me the argument takes one in the direction of NOT needing to bother w/ THD or any given company because the gear won't make a difference, you'll sound the same no matter what gear you're using. Which leaves feel, response... I've played amps that feel great for shredding as an example and I wouldn't argue that the tone was any good, nor did I sound like I do when I use my rig, so clearly the gear makes a difference in the resulting tone, to my view point.

 

[Telephant]

Just thinking out loud here:

I agree with both sides of this arguement. As a lead guitar player who relies on FEEL for just about everything, Ed's opinion makes sense to me. You know, we've all heard the saying, "shit in shit out." If you have a shitty player through a plexi his tone is probably going to suck because he doesnt have "the touch." At the same time, one would argue, "but the core tone is still there!" And Id have to agree.

Its sort of a catch 22. I propose that tone is in both the fingers, the amp, the guitar, the strings, the cable etc etc. The variables are endless. Id say the amp and fingers are the two biggest variables though.

Imagine how much different I would sound through Ralph's Mark IV using his settings than he does! Probably quite a bit different, especially from lead line stand point! Where it becomes harder to tell, is the rhythm playing. You can still tell a difference, but now that you're playing chords so you're hearing the amps full tonal spectrum (i.e. where the mid emphasis is, low end tightness, bright/dark top end etc etc) and it becomes (IMO anyways), a lot harder to tell who is who. You'd still be able to tell the difference between Ralph and I playing rhythm though, because Im such a heavy handed player. But I dont think its as easy as hearing the leads.

Thats one of the reasons I wanted Ed to make rhythm clips comparing his SV and another tube amp. Because when he plays lead lines, all I hear is Ed and Ed's tone. It doesnt matter what amp it is. Ed is like SRV to me in the sense that, I dont need vocals bass or drums to figure out who it is, I just listen to his playing. So if all I hear is Ed's leads, comparing the two amps doesnt even matter to me at that point, because they both sound the same.

 

[Greazygeo]

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

Then do one note or chord....seems like that would be an easy way to prove it one way or the other......

 

[Anonymous]

I can't believe you guys are still at this.

Everyone on both sides of the equation is saying the same things over and over and no one is ever going to convince the other side they are wrong. I made my point far earlier in the thread, I'm done saying the same thing over and over... Time to move on for me...

Have fun, fellers!

BTW, Ed - I hope our disagreement here last night is not being taken too personally by you. You are a great guy and I certainly haven't taken your comments personally - all in the heat of the discussion I say...

Steve

 

[Zachman]

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

Then do one note or chord....seems like that would be an easy way to prove it one way or the other......

Ok, I'll save this thread and post 2 single note clips just for you.

 

[Meathead]

Just thinking out loud here:

I agree with both sides of this arguement. As a lead guitar player who relies on FEEL for just about everything, Ed's opinion makes sense to me. You know, we've all heard the saying, "shit in shit out." If you have a shitty player through a plexi his tone is probably going to suck because he doesnt have "the touch." At the same time, one would argue, "but the core tone is still there!" And Id have to agree.

Its sort of a catch 22. I propose that tone is in both the fingers, the amp, the guitar, the strings, the cable etc etc. The variables are endless. Id say the amp and fingers are the two biggest variables though.

Imagine how much different I would sound through Ralph's Mark IV using his settings than he does! Probably quite a bit different, especially from lead line stand point! Where it becomes harder to tell, is the rhythm playing. You can still tell a difference, but now that you're playing chords so you're hearing the amps full tonal spectrum (i.e. where the mid emphasis is, low end tightness, bright/dark top end etc etc) and it becomes (IMO anyways), a lot harder to tell who is who. You'd still be able to tell the difference between Ralph and I playing rhythm though, because Im such a heavy handed player. But I dont think its as easy as hearing the leads.

Thats one of the reasons I wanted Ed to make rhythm clips comparing his SV and another tube amp. Because when he plays lead lines, all I hear is Ed and Ed's tone. It doesnt matter what amp it is. Ed is like SRV to me in the sense that, I dont need vocals bass or drums to figure out who it is, I just listen to his playing. So if all I hear is Ed's leads, comparing the two amps doesnt even matter to me at that point, because they both sound the same.

Another guy like that is Warren (blackstratblues), we did a lot of jamming together and whether he used his Mesa or his Marshall with different speakers even...the sound was a bit different, but it always sounded like him, the way he dug in and dialed in his amp....I could never guess which amp he was using.

 

[degenaro]

I can't believe you guys are still at this.

Everyone on both sides of the equation is saying the same things over and over and no one is ever going to convince the other side they are wrong. I made my point far earlier in the thread, I'm done saying the same thing over and over... Time to move on for me...

Have fun, fellers!

BTW, Ed - I hope our disagreement here last night is not being taken too personally by you. You are a great guy and I certainly haven't taken your comments personally - all in the heat of the discussion I say...

Steve

Steve, this is abot the only place where I don't take thins personally. It's when I discuss shit o TGP when folks get bent outta shape and call m boss complaining where I take shit VERY personally. We're good.

 

[Zachman]

Just thinking out loud here:

I agree with both sides of this arguement. As a lead guitar player who relies on FEEL for just about everything, Ed's opinion makes sense to me. You know, we've all heard the saying, "shit in shit out." If you have a shitty player through a plexi his tone is probably going to suck because he doesnt have "the touch." At the same time, one would argue, "but the core tone is still there!" And Id have to agree.

Its sort of a catch 22. I propose that tone is in both the fingers, the amp, the guitar, the strings, the cable etc etc. The variables are endless. Id say the amp and fingers are the two biggest variables though.

Imagine how much different I would sound through Ralph's Mark IV using his settings than he does! Probably quite a bit different, especially from lead line stand point! Where it becomes harder to tell, is the rhythm playing. You can still tell a difference, but now that you're playing chords so you're hearing the amps full tonal spectrum (i.e. where the mid emphasis is, low end tightness, bright/dark top end etc etc) and it becomes (IMO anyways), a lot harder to tell who is who. You'd still be able to tell the difference between Ralph and I playing rhythm though, because Im such a heavy handed player. But I dont think its as easy as hearing the leads.

Thats one of the reasons I wanted Ed to make rhythm clips comparing his SV and another tube amp. Because when he plays lead lines, all I hear is Ed and Ed's tone. It doesnt matter what amp it is. Ed is like SRV to me in the sense that, I dont need vocals bass or drums to figure out who it is, I just listen to his playing. So if all I hear is Ed's leads, comparing the two amps doesnt even matter to me at that point, because they both sound the same.

YUP... Heck I sound like me no matter what amp I'm playing on too, however; I am not claiming the tone sounds the same with that statement. The tone with me playing my Boogie or the tone w/ me playing a Krank are painfully obviously different... same fingers, so the difference is the gear.

 

[degenaro]

I'm not talking as a player. I'm talking THD.

OK, then why would someone spend more $$$ on a THD, assuming their level of proficiency, then say a pignose, if tone is in the fingers? Just saying THD's have a sound, feel and character or am I incorrect??? I know I'm right because I've played them, w/ you at NAMM and at Tone Merchants and own some THD products (Hot Plates) for that reason.

It seems to me the argument takes one in the direction of NOT needing to bother w/ THD or any given company because the gear won't make a difference, you'll sound the same no matter what gear you're using. Which leaves feel, response... I've played amps that feel great for shredding as an example and I wouldn't argue that the tone was any good, nor did I sound like I do when I use my rig, so clearly the gear makes a difference in the resulting tone, to my view point.

I already answered this.
Goback and re-read what I said about THD amps, the player gear feedback loop and the response of gear.

 

[degenaro]

Just thinking out loud here:

I agree with both sides of this arguement. As a lead guitar player who relies on FEEL for just about everything, Ed's opinion makes sense to me. You know, we've all heard the saying, "shit in shit out." If you have a shitty player through a plexi his tone is probably going to suck because he doesnt have "the touch." At the same time, one would argue, "but the core tone is still there!" And Id have to agree.

Its sort of a catch 22. I propose that tone is in both the fingers, the amp, the guitar, the strings, the cable etc etc. The variables are endless. Id say the amp and fingers are the two biggest variables though.

Imagine how much different I would sound through Ralph's Mark IV using his settings than he does! Probably quite a bit different, especially from lead line stand point! Where it becomes harder to tell, is the rhythm playing. You can still tell a difference, but now that you're playing chords so you're hearing the amps full tonal spectrum (i.e. where the mid emphasis is, low end tightness, bright/dark top end etc etc) and it becomes (IMO anyways), a lot harder to tell who is who. You'd still be able to tell the difference between Ralph and I playing rhythm though, because Im such a heavy handed player. But I dont think its as easy as hearing the leads.

Thats one of the reasons I wanted Ed to make rhythm clips comparing his SV and another tube amp. Because when he plays lead lines, all I hear is Ed and Ed's tone. It doesnt matter what amp it is. Ed is like SRV to me in the sense that, I dont need vocals bass or drums to figure out who it is, I just listen to his playing. So if all I hear is Ed's leads, comparing the two amps doesnt even matter to me at that point, because they both sound the same.

YUP... Heck I sound like me no matter what amp I'm playing on too, however; I am not claiming the tone sounds the same with that statement. The tone with me playing my Boogie or the tone w/ me playing a Krank are painfully obviously different... same fingers.

Again...

nuff said.

 

[degenaro]

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

Then do one note or chord....seems like that would be an easy way to prove it one way or the other......

That assumes your buddy striked the string with the same pick at the same angle at the same spot with the same force and has the exact same amount of body mass to absorb vibrations.

 

[Anonymous]

I can't believe you guys are still at this.

Everyone on both sides of the equation is saying the same things over and over and no one is ever going to convince the other side they are wrong. I made my point far earlier in the thread, I'm done saying the same thing over and over... Time to move on for me...

Have fun, fellers!

BTW, Ed - I hope our disagreement here last night is not being taken too personally by you. You are a great guy and I certainly haven't taken your comments personally - all in the heat of the discussion I say...

Steve

Steve, this is abot the only place where I don't take thins personally. It's when I discuss shit o TGP when folks get bent outta shape and call m boss complaining where I take shit VERY personally. We're good.

Good to hear man!

I can't believe people actually call your boss complaining. You don't mess with a person's livelihood. Childish and dangerous behavior IMO...

Steve

 

[tweed]

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

Then do one note or chord....seems like that would be an easy way to prove it one way or the other......

That assumes your buddy striked the string with the same pick at the same angle at the same spot with the same force and has the exact same amount of body mass to absorb vibrations.

are you trying to say that my rather large, absolutely sexified man boobs affect the tone Ed ?

 

[Zachman]

Again...

nuff said.

Not sure what that was supposed to prove, other than it isn't the best sounding or best performance I've heard from you. What was your point??? Was that a modeler? It sounded like it to me. It surely didn't sound like some of your THD clips.

 

[Zachman]

As I stated earlier, technique IS in the fingers and can and does coax nuances out of gear, but can't make something that isn't in the gear in the 1st place appear out of nowhere.

If I took my rig a recorded a open e note and handed the guitar to a buddy and had him do the same, I bet it would sound EXACTLY the same. Riffs etc... relay technique, which IS a factor for getting more mileage or less depending, out of any given guitar gear.

Then do one note or chord....seems like that would be an easy way to prove it one way or the other......

That assumes your buddy striked the string with the same pick at the same angle at the same spot with the same force and has the exact same amount of body mass to absorb vibrations.

Ya, I'll make sure he's facing North too, c'mon

Fenders have a core sound/tone, same for Vox, Marshall, Mesa, THD etc... Irrespective of who is playing them. The only difference that it makes, is some guys can make them sing.