Brandonrz
Well-known member
It’s so nice when someone gets it lol. Shits painful man.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
Yeah, please don't misunderstand me. Maybe I come off as some sort of dick who just wants to pick a fight online, but I didn't want to. I just don't like the guy's videos.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
That's up for debate, IMO. Honestly, I think the whole "more mids" is either a relatively recent thing or a really old-school approach. I mean, in the 80's, no one was telling James Hetfield his tone wasn't cutting through, right? Or in the 90's to Chuck Schuldiner.
All of the tones that I like the best are somewhat midscooped, TBH.
Yes, mids help a guitar cut in the mix, but you gotta remember guitar isn't the only instrument in the mix. It's easy enough to dial in too much mids in a guitar tone so that it's stepping on other instruments' toes as well.
I mean, after all, if guitars are all about midrange and not lows and highs as well, why are people still using high-headrom amps and 4x12's to record? Or why are Rectos, Ubers, or Herberts even relevant? Why do amps have resonance knobs and presence knobs?
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japetus
Well-known member
VES I am looking forward to your review of the 5150 iconic, I think you might like it
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VESmedic
Well-known member
DUDEEEEE I played one awhile back at my buddy’s house, I thought it ruled! Super fun amp, I need to get one, I really liked it a ton.
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The One
Well-known member
I Can't say i've ever noticed attitude from him. He's always mentioned that he's more of a Punk guy because he learned to Play guitar to Green Day albums & bands like that. I can't remember him ever mentioning Metal hardly ever. it's always funny to me cause if a guy mentions metal just once or even a half dozen times, all the metal guys get their panties in a twist if that guy never plays a metal riff. This is why i refused to identify myself in high school as a Metal Guy. It's too Limiting.
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Spaceboy
Well-known member
mids are often getting notched to make room for vocals tbh. shit tons of mids doesn’t always work and your studio dude might be slicing that shit out without you even noticing.
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Racerxrated
Well-known member
I don't know man, I've played a MW Triple and dug it a lot....I'd suggest anyone who wants an F triple to go ahead and get a MW. They aren't that far off.
But, the Rev C that I have? WAAY more aggressive than any Mesa I've ever played, including the 4 C+ I've owned. You can dime the bass (try that with any other Recto lol) and it doesn't overwhelm; dime the mids and it's not honky at all. Boost it and it simply destroys any Mesa I've ever owned or played...for what I like anyway. The power section puts out like a Wizard or SLO, not even kidding. That was the biggest surprise as any and all Rectos I've owned seem underpowered for their rating.
But as far as aggression in an amp, if one could measure it, there hasn't been any amp I've ever played that measures up to this thing. Not any Cameron mods, stock/modded Marshalls, nothing.
It is one angry Fn pissed of Mfer.
This one, was with Mike B in the past couple years...maybe the one you tried needed some servicing?
RaceU4her
Well-known member
Being a dick and starting fights is what rigtalk is all about
thegame
Well-known member
Mesa needs to stop revising amps past the C revision. Kind of like the 3 strikes and you’re out sort of rule.
RaceU4her
Well-known member
For some reason we always seem to hype up early versions of something as the far superior product and I’m not totally sure why? I can’t believe every amp or pedal company says “hey this is great, let’s fuck it up”, especially higher end companies like mesa or bogner that I would think want to put out the best product they can. I really wanted the old mesa to win here, maybe cause it’s just programmed into my brain “old is better” and vintage is cool but if I was to pick blind folded it would be the new one
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
I think what we're hearing is those old amps just sound more like the sound we hear on all those iconic records.
I highly doubt there's an objective reason as to why they're "better".
I highly doubt there's an objective reason as to why they're "better".
anomaly
Well-known member
They use 4x12's and such to get a wider sound, a bigger sonic footprint so to speak. You don't want a narrow band of midrange beaming at you, you want a nice fat blast of midrange that doesn't have any spikes in it. Believe it or not, James hetfield, Chuck, and Dimebag all had midrange in their tone, especially live. On the albums, not as much, but you can hear that the bass is pushed way back on most of those albums because of that, or the bass occupies frequencies not commonly occupied by a bass.
The resonance and presence knobs are to sound good in the bedroom. Seriously though, the presence control affects more than just 5 to 10k, it can affect the upper midrange a lot as well. i know a lot of amps that would sound like they are under water with the presence turned down to 0.
To be honest, if you're loud enough you will hear the full spectrum, but what sound guy these days lets the guitarist be the loudest instrument in the band??
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Racerxrated
Well-known member
It's really very simple...the earlier ones sound better. Almost every time. I run the same pedals in front of each different Recto revision I've owned, and through the same cab(s). Same with the C+s I've owned. Now, I've had many 2Bs and the LATER C+ sounds better...there's the exception lol.
But, maybe it's the aging of the components? Then again, not much time difference between a C and a G recto. Huge circuit differences though. Hype would be someone that hasn't played a certain amp, chiming in on how great it is. But they have no experience with it, just regurgitating what they heard on the net.
Is it the transformers? We all know they aren't made anymore. I guess the only way to know would be if Mesa did an exact copy of a Rev C today and compared it to an original. Of course, they did an exact copy of a C+ HRG and the JP, as good as it is still sounds/feels different than a vintage C+.
The problem with this video comp is, I suspect Fluff darkened the D so it would sound like the MW as close as possible; but I'd bet if I dialed in the D it would end up far brighter than the MW could even be dialed. MW are great, no doubt. But unless you're in the room, you rely on a clip which still can hide nuances that you won't get listening on headphones/speakers on your computer.
anomaly
Well-known member
I gotta admit, I don't have much experience with the 5150 series. They're not an amp I'm interested in at all, just generic sounding to me.
...and those recordings, if they don't have much midrange, what do they have? just bass and treble? seriously now. The guitar is a midrange instrument, so what you're mostly hearing is midrange in a mix, even if it's somewhat scooped, it's still the midrange that gives it it's presence in the mix. If you scoop the shit out of your guitars, then you gotta turn the volume way up to comphensate, and it also steps on the bass guitar a lot. Why do you think those old thrash recordings had weak bass tones?? and why was the bass tuned way down, it was so you can hear the guitars better cause the guitars were dialed in with a full frequency tone, not a mix friendly tone.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
I get it. We all dial tones in differently. I have never found an overly mid-heavy sound sits well in the mix, but that has been my experience. I always gravitate towards tones like Clayman, Heartwork, Nymphetamine, Shadows Are Security, None, etc, never like Fluff's, so I always dial in my tones for them to sound good mic'd and in those kinds of mixes. But I honestly don't have a problem getting those tones to translate well to a live environment. I mean, after all, when you blast 90's/80's Metallica through PA's, the guitars never have a problem cutting through, do they?
But to say mids is the only way to go, and I need a nice fat blast of midrange is taking it too far. If mids work for you, all the more power for you. But I honestly thing that's a more recent approach to dialing in tones that I don't like, and that will someday be every bit as dated as people are saying scooped tones are today. And that for many people doesn't work either, many much more experienced, knowledgeable, and with a more professional approach than me.
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braintheory
Well-known member
No, these great vintage amps in my case came out before I was alive. They just sound & feel better, plain & simple. Took me too many years to figure out due to my own stubbornness of only trying the “latest & greatest” “boutique” amps assuming incorrectly at the time that they must be better than the “outdated” old amps that are “just for collectors” that I didn’t really give them a fair chance for a while. I fell for it back then, partly from idiots on various forums hyping up those boutique amps
Even if one doesn’t hear the more raw, organic and in most cases complex quality to the tone (which some don’t sadly), with amps like the Rev C or early ‘70’s Marshall SuperLead they have so much more punch (air moving) physically hitting you and the Rev C has this more extended bottom end as well over other Recto’s that even a deaf person would notice these clear differences that aren’t even tonal in nature. They’d feel those physically. Who knows why they’re better. I don’t care. I just go with what my ears are most impressed by. I still have plenty of modern gear anyway too fwiw. I like anything that sounds good. Most current made stuff just doesn’t sound that great IME with just a few exceptions here and there
anomaly
Well-known member
Dude what I'm saying is that even though you think your tone is scooped it still has midrange in it because the guitar is a midrange instrument. If you take all of the midrange out of your tone it'll sound incredibly fucking shrill and thin. So even those so called "scooped tones" have midrange in them. It's just an inherent part of the guitars natural tone.
and when I say a blast of midrange I mean a big fat, balanced blast of midrange from 350hz to 3k, not just a narrow beam, like 700hz to 1k, like some little combo amps sound like. A full mid spectrum tone means a lot of different fequencies with no frequency spikes.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
I don't doubt your experience, but that still doesn't sound very objective. So the Rev C has more extended bottom end than like a Multiwatt? OK, but there are many amps that have more extended bottom end than a Multiwatt, and that doesn't necessarily make them better.
I mean, I'd sitlll love to own a classic two channel Rev-whatever one time for sure. But honestly, just because that's what some of the tones I like were recorded with. It will probably sound "better" to me, but that's just going to be my perception. Not something quantifiable.
Unless someone goes ahead and says they were using better components/transformers/tubes back then. Now that would be somewhat more objective. And I mean, tubes? OK, I think that's common knowledge, but components? Transformers? Designs, even?
And I mean, after all, even the oldest Recto is by far newer than a 50's Bassman or AC-30. I mean, those are cool amps, but I have absolutely no use for them compared to a Dual Recto for the style of music that I play.
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braintheory
Well-known member
Yes, the more extended bottom end doesn’t make it better like you said, I just meant that it’s an undeniable difference that even a deaf person would notice from that physical push it gives. I think it’s better because it’s there if desired, makes the sound heavier, and somehow doesn’t seem to interfere or muddy anything up. It’s also more cutting than the later revisions from its more aggressive upper frequencies
I can’t say about amps or whether components are objectively better, but I do know that some vintage components can’t be replicated the same way now such as the formvar wire used on vintage pickups and the ingredients of the nitro finish back then also had a bit different ingredients
Yes of course those ‘50’s & ‘60’s amps you mentioned are not voiced appropriately to be suitable for metal, but I own or have owned in the past those amps as well and while they’re not metal amps, they sound even more raw & organic that later made amps (even in the ‘70’s), so I hear them as in many ways having better quality tone, but just not the right tools for the job. If there was a metal amp with that quality I’d be in Heaven lol. A good ‘50’s tweed champ is perhaps the most raw sounding amp I’ve tried thus far and if you boost it and use high output pickups I think many would be amazed how ballsy & aggressive it gets and pushes way farther than you’d think a 5w should be doing
