Sennheiser 421 placement?

[Simon Dorn]

I've got a recording session with friends this weekend. Taking a few cabs with GBs, Emi Tonespotters, and Tone Tubby Red Alnicos. I'm bringing some 57s and 609s, but my buddy will have some 421s there. Where do you like to place a 421 on the speaker?

Next to the 57. Phase aligned.

 

[MGL AmpWorks]

Many think Joe Holmes gets great tones, including myself. His standing Farmikos recording setup at the Mouse House studio was a 1968 Marshall basketweave cab with 25w greenbacks mic’d with a 57 just off center and a 421 off axis. Sounds great to me and we use that combo on most of our demos.

 

[DanTravis62]

Many think Joe Holmes gets great tones, including myself. His standing Farmikos recording setup at the Mouse House studio was a 1968 Marshall basketweave cab with 25w greenbacks mic’d with a 57 just off center and a 421 off axis. Sounds great to me and we use that combo on most of our demos.

Yep this has been a standard guitar setup in every studio I have ever worked in, and has been used on countless records. I use a 421 all the time, almost as much as I use 57s.

I would suggest that if people are having problems getting a 421 to work for guitar, they are probably not using it in the correct way to get the results they are after

Most likely placement - it is not "idiot proof" like a 57, E609, I5, 121, etc.

 

[DanTravis62]

Oh yeah, make sure you have it set on the right setting on the bottom.

That's how I got my vintage 421 for cheap. The guy I bought it from had it set on the "speech" setting (maximum bass roll off) and thought it was broken.

Judging by the comments in this thread, I almost guarantee a couple people had it on the wrong setting. If you're recording guitar it needs to be on the "m" setting (no bass roll off)

 

[MGL AmpWorks]

Oh yeah, make sure you have it set on the right setting on the bottom.

That's how I got my vintage 421 for cheap. The guy I bought it from had it set on the "speech" setting (maximum bass roll off) and thought it was broken.

Judging by the comments in this thread, I almost guarantee a couple people had it on the wrong setting. If you're recording guitar it needs to be on the "m" setting (no bass roll off)

Or, sometimes the amps-speakers combinations being mic’d just don’t sound good together. No mic can fix that.

 

[DanTravis62]

Or, sometimes the amps-speakers combinations being mic’d just don’t sound good together. No mic can fix that.

True, but that's one of those "baked in" things you kind of have to just take for granted in order to have a conversation with someone about recording stuff online most of the time

Kind of like "well of course it sounds bad if you can't play" - I mean no shit sherlock But you have to assume someone is a basically competent player for their experiences and opinions to have any validity in the first place.

Not that either one doesn't happen; we have certainly have seen both in the annals of RT history.

I just sincerely doubt the half dozen people who have posted their bad experiences with a 421 were using it correctly judging by how they described it - some of them whom I know are decent players and have recorded solid tones in the past.

 

[Mike Oxhuge]

True, but that's one of those "baked in" things you kind of have to just take for granted in order to have a conversation with someone about recording stuff online most of the time

Kind of like "well of course it sounds bad if you can't play" - I mean no shit sherlock But you have to assume someone is a basically competent player for their experiences and opinions to have any validity in the first place.

Not that either one doesn't happen; we have certainly have seen both in the annals of RT history.

I just sincerely doubt the half dozen people who have posted their bad experiences with a 421 were using it correctly judging by how they described it - some of them whom I know are decent players and have recorded solid tones in the past.

Count me in on using it like an idiot, I got a steal of a deal on one, tried it a couple of times and just stuck with my 57/58 combo. When I get back to recording next year I will put the time in to learn what it likes.

 

[DanTravis62]

Count me in on using it like an idiot, I got a steal of a deal on one, tried it a couple of times and just stuck with my 57/58 combo. When I get back to recording next year I will put the time in to learn what it likes.

Props for admitting it

It's not entirely your fault though; there is so much information on 57s (and their myriad derivations like the 609 I5 etc) out there online that everyone has a pretty good grasp on how to use it; and if you dont the info is easily available.

With 421s it's not like that, even though it's used nearly as often for guitar on professional recordings (which is saying something)

It's much more fidgety and complex of a mic to use, and requires certain things of the user, none of which is plastered all over the internet like it is with the 57. So I guess I shouldn't be surprised that so many have had issues with it.

That's not a problem with the mic though lol

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Straight on but off the center and more near the outer edge of the cone. I actually find the mic to be ok on it's own but it is a bit scooped so can sound somewhat hollow as well. But the lore is this and a 57 together for the AC DC sound so who knows.... you have to watch or be ok with phase but I am liking a 57 and sm7b together at the moment. Less strident but still cuts. But yes, anytime you use two mics you need to think of phase and how they compliment each other. If unsure, play with IR's and get an idea.

 

[skoora]

A lot of guys use them on bass rigs.

Mine is great for bass. Mic it the same as a guitar, edge of the cone/dustcap. With subtle adjustments depending on gear. I use the 421, mixed with a 57 on guitar a lot. Put them both right next to each other and blend away. Good for adding extra body to the 57 sound. I would never use a 421 by itself for a guitar tone but there could be a combo of guitar, amp and speaker where it works solo, but I’ve never come across it.

 

[Greazygeo]

Dumb takes, 421s are classics for a reason but you need to know how to use them. User error.

Generally speaking you don't use them on their own for guitar. You use them to blend with another mic - usually a 57 or 121 and/or condensers.

They are "bright" but they aren't meant to be straight on axis like a 57. They are meant to bring out treble and high midrange detail. That's why they are the standard on toms. You set them up off axis, even at an angle like you would do for two 57s for the fredman technique.

When used correctly, they fill everything that is missing in the top end of a 57, 609/906, audix I5, etc (all the 57 based mics)

I use a vintage one blended in my recordings all the time. If you aren't getting good results, I would suggest that you stop trying to pretend its an SM57.

I don’t find them bright. They just have an electric razor, buzzy hi mid thing I hate. Same with the 609. Don’t mind them on drums, but guitars, no thanks. Nothing useful for me.

 

[DanTravis62]

I don’t find them bright. They just have an electric razor, buzzy hi mid thing I hate. Same with the 609. Don’t mind them on drums, but guitars, no thanks. Nothing useful for me.

Okay

 

[Rackman]

The 421 is not one mic, but 3 broad families. Sort of like the SM57, except instead of being largely distinguished by country of origin it's more by era. The original U series 421s are much less hyped. The II series are more hyped. I have not had a chance to try a "Kompakt" yet, and there are several special editions that some people argue sound different from the others but ???. I have a set of 3 U4 and U5 era 421s, and I've never felt the need to buy any of the others.

There's a general consensus that all of them are useful on toms. I only consider the original U series mics useful on guitars. It can be used by itself close and on-axis with careful positioning. It tends to be better with less distorted and/or less bright sources though. I've seen it do well on old Gibson amps for example. One of the U5s is also a decent live vocal mic for me.

I consider the M88, M201, and e906 to be the most useful dynamics for close micing guitar. I will also say my approach is to faithfully reproduce an amp that sounds good in the room. If your goal is to use the mic to change how the guitar sounds, you will likely select other models.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

Dumb takes, 421s are classics for a reason but you need to know how to use them. User error.

Generally speaking you don't use them on their own for guitar. You use them to blend with another mic - usually a 57 or 121 and/or condensers.

They are "bright" but they aren't meant to be straight on axis like a 57. They are meant to bring out treble and high midrange detail. That's why they are the standard on toms. You set them up off axis, even at an angle like you would do for two 57s for the fredman technique.

When used correctly, they fill everything that is missing in the top end of a 57, 609/906, audix I5, etc (all the 57 based mics)

I use a vintage one blended in my recordings all the time. If you aren't getting good results, I would suggest that you stop trying to pretend its an SM57.

Starting to read this thread I was thinking I needed to tag you in case you didn't see it. I see you're already on top of it.