Ben Waylin
Banned
Well-known member
Bro, are you a fucking hypocritical fake Christian asshole piece of shit, or what?
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Of course he can. God knows the outcome, but the thief is free to decide what he will do himself. Having foreknowledge doesn't negate someone's free will.
CrazyNutz
Well-known member
Gods knowledge is the man will steal the guitar, but the man chose not to, and therefore did not steal the guitar.
So now you're saying god is not omniscient, or at the least wrong.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Knowing the future doesn't mean you've destroyed someone's free will. If God is omniscient and all powerful then something that seems impossible is possible. Like God knowing the future but not dumping on the thief's free will. Your argument is contradictory.
Bad Brain
Well-known member
I think the argument is that if god knows the future, then it is already set, and so the person can't actually choose otherwise.
CrazyNutz
Well-known member
So God knows what a man will do before said man even exists, right? Logic says that is 100% predetermination.
But let's say god defies logic since he's all powerful.
Two problem still exist for the God story:
1). Hebrews 9:27 says, “People are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” Jesus said that people will be judged based on what they did during their lives.
What is the point? You are prejudged before you're even created.
2). The moral question:
God created Hitler, knowing full well what he would do.
What would society do to someone that created something knowing fully that it would inflict great harm, and suffering to their citizens?
What if someone created a virus, and they had full knowledge it would kill 1 million people.
Does this person get to escape responsibility if he says "I knew what it was going to do, but it could make it's own choices"
CrazyNutz
Well-known member
Bad Brain
Well-known member
In response, there is a movement that posits god actually doesn't know the future, or the entire future anyways, thus keeping free will intact. But obviously this bugs some because they say it dings his omniscience ?
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
What's the point in what?
You sound like you want an excuse for your behavior. God didn't make you do it, he just knew what you were going to do before you did You could've opted out, you CHOSE not to. Either people are responsible for their actions or it's God's fault.
You keep asking the same question over and over. I've already provided the answer. That God created men and some men decided to turn to evil doesn't make God responsible for the evil. If you are condeming God based on that then you should also be praising God for the good people doing good things out there. You can't have it both ways. You seem to be taking a common leftist tack that dismisses people from personal responsibility. I don't agree with it.
Bad Brain
Well-known member
I think it does, or would in our courts of law anyways... in particular if he knew what they would do.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Except courts are basically modeled after the heavenly court. God doesn't care if some pissant judge/jury convicts him of wrongdoing in a human courtroom.They aren't his peers. I believe some jews tried to blame him for the holocaust, put him on trial and everything. Hows that working out?
CrazyNutz
Well-known member
What's the point of judging after death. It's all known before creating you.
And BTW don't use me as an example, I don't believe God exists (at least not the god of the bible), so none of this applies to me at all. I'm just discussing the belief.
I'm asking questions, and you're making assumptions, and conflating me with something you dislike.
So what I've learned about your belief thus far:
1). God 100% knows what you'll do before he creates you, however somehow you still have a choice in what you do.
Totally illogical.
2). God knows if you'll do horrible acts, but will create you anyway because you somehow still have choice, which relieves god of any moral responsibility?
Totally illogical
3) God can justify killing children for the acts of their parents.
Not even humans would do this.
You'll begin conflating people that question this, with things you don't like.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Because you actually did have free will during your life.
It's illogical to you but if you are all powerful then it makes complete sense. You're using it as a personal deflection so you can justify not acknowledging your creator.
Not at all. Again, if he's all powerful, your human "logic" no longer applies. So if he is responsible for evil people he created then he must also be responsible for the good, loving people he created also.
God can do whatever he want and your judgments against him are meaningless.
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CrazyNutz
Well-known member
Alright we can beat this horse to death.
But IF YOUR WHOLE LIFE IS 100% KNOWN BEFORE YOU EXIST, you 100% can not change anything when you do exist.
I have no clue how you don't understand this. I suspect you do, but you're too emotionally invested in your belief to admit it.
At anyrate thanks for the mostly pleasant discussion.
Bad Brain
Well-known member
I will add one point. Contrary to many Christians self-flattering belief, not all people are looking for excuses not to recognize "Their Creator," or so they have license to "Live in sin". They are simple noting problems and have come to the (IMO) reasonable conclusion that the whole thing is made up.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Simple logic tells me you are wrong though. I can make coffee, I can have water instead. I could run to the store for a quart of beer. I could buy a powerade. Maybe a topo chico, that sounds good. No one forces my hand, the Lord simply knows us better than we know ourselves and so is aware of the choices we will make. Awareness doesn't equate to control over our bodily autonomy. I think you are missing that.
It's a matter of choice, lol. You choose cold and imperfect human logic judging the actions of an unknowable God He's the chief, I'm the indian. I choose to trust the Lord in his promises and his son Christ who the saints and martyrs testified was crucified and rose on the third day. I think we are very much alike, but also do live a very different in our perception of existence.
But for me personally your outlook offers no hope. You can say this is my personal failing or weakness, that's cool, but the Hebrews were also very weak, slaves to the mighty Egytpians and yet God delivered them with a mighty hand. All the technological, intellectual, and occult prowess of the greatest nation in it's day didn't work out. So I trust in Christ to deliver us and that includes you and other's being delivered. It's all I really have other than some guitar junk. what's that worth? What's eternity worth? It's actually all any of us have, it we choose to be cognizant of it. Be blessed.
Bad Brain
Well-known member
Au contraire mon frère. It's not the awareness, it's the fact that it is impossible to choose otherwise without messing up god's foreknowledge. If god knows what he will choose before he chooses it, it is set and he can't do anything else. It logically invalidates free will. But many christians don't believe in free will anyways and that is a whole other can of moral worms.
ccn
Well-known member
Keep liberals away from guns and these types of things would stop , you do understand that 99% of school and mass shooters in general identify as leftists I hope.
Despite what the media insist is the case Christian white males are not a threat to anybody .
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Except the god in your hypothetical wouldn't be all powerful if he couldn't have foreknowledge AND allow you to have free will to go with it simultaneously So, case closed.
