Tone is in your Hand?

['63-Strat]

But I don't think there is single person ever who has said they'd sound the same through a twin as a 5150. What many of are saying is that same rig, different players, drastically different tone. That's it. And as far as the painting goes, how you blend and use colors and shading is the analogous part IMO. YMMV. I never said gear doesn't have an effect? Obviously it does.

I get it. My point is that the phrase is clearly inadequate, similar to the phrase, "near miss" (when 2 planes almost crash into each other)-- That's a near hit, not a near miss. Anyway...

Some guys, who admit the instrument gets the tones, and their fingers can't get/don't get those tones w/ other instruments. They're not talking about 'sounding like' him-- no matter what he's playing through. "Style", or "Proficiency" on the instrument, as a substitute for "Tone" (A separate topic), is not withstanding the topic of the "Tone" being in the hands/Fingers. Style, Touch, Technique and Proficiency are in the fingers, but that is NOT Tone, though they can/do impact tone.

The phrase "tone is in the fingers" is only inadequate if you equate to mean it's only in the fingers and the gear plays no role. Which IMO no one is saying. The aspect of tone that does come from the gear, anyone can get. The aspect from the "fingers" so to speak you can't.

 

[Zachman]

But I don't think there is single person ever who has said they'd sound the same through a twin as a 5150. What many of are saying is that same rig, different players, drastically different tone. That's it. And as far as the painting goes, how you blend and use colors and shading is the analogous part IMO. YMMV. I never said gear doesn't have an effect? Obviously it does.

I get it. My point is that the phrase is clearly inadequate, similar to the phrase, "near miss" (when 2 planes almost crash into each other)-- That's a near hit, not a near miss. Anyway...

Some guys, who admit the instrument gets the tones, and their fingers can't get/don't get those tones w/ other instruments. They're not talking about 'sounding like' him-- no matter what he's playing through. "Style", or "Proficiency" on the instrument, as a substitute for "Tone" (A separate topic), is not withstanding the topic of the "Tone" being in the hands/Fingers. Style, Touch, Technique and Proficiency are in the fingers, but that is NOT Tone, though they can/do impact tone.

The phrase "tone is in the fingers" is only inadequate if you equate to mean it's only in the fingers and the gear plays no role. Which IMO no one is saying. The aspect of tone that does come from the gear, anyone can get. The aspect from the "fingers" so to speak you can't.

Disagree, as dialing in tone/gear is a separate art than playing proficiently.

The phrase is inadequate, literally-- as it doesn't convey the slang meaning-- you and others are assigning to it, in any way. It is literally wrong.

 

[Greazygeo]

The test isn't having 2 guys play through the same gear. It's having the same guy play through different gear.

Says who? Playing thru different gear shows nothing. A roomful of good players with one acoustic guitar. Play an A note on the d string for instance. Have each guy play the same note. Tell me what you hear......

 

[Zachman]

The test isn't having 2 guys play through the same gear. It's having the same guy play through different gear.

Says who? Playing thru different gear shows nothing. A roomful of good players with one acoustic guitar. Play an A note on the d string for instance. Have each guy play the same note. Tell me what you hear......

Says me.

But I don't think there is single person ever who has said they'd sound the same through a twin as a 5150. What many of are saying is that same rig, different players, drastically different tone. That's it. And as far as the painting goes, how you blend and use colors and shading is the analogous part IMO. YMMV. I never said gear doesn't have an effect? Obviously it does.

I get it. My point is that the phrase is clearly inadequate, similar to the phrase, "near miss" (when 2 planes almost crash into each other)-- That's a near hit, not a near miss. Anyway...

Some guys, who admit the instrument gets the tones, and their fingers can't get/don't get those tones w/ other instruments. They're not talking about 'sounding like' him-- no matter what he's playing through. "Style", or "Proficiency" on the instrument, as a substitute for "Tone" (A separate topic), is not withstanding the topic of the "Tone" being in the hands/Fingers. Style, Touch, Technique and Proficiency are in the fingers, but that is NOT Tone, though they can/do impact tone.

Playing through different gear proves the literally incorrect assertion, absurd-- because taken literally it easily illustrates that tone isn't "In" the hands/fingers, rather results from them playing an instrument, which creates a sound. IF the saying were true, we wouldn't need gear at all. We could play Air guitar, and have the tone emanate from out fingers. But if you listen really closely-- the sound, and tone are coming not from the fingers, rather from the instrument.

I get what you're 'trying' to say, re: the phrase 'Tone is in the fingers/hands', but your intended meaning, isn't supported grammatically by the phrase, which is why I said it's inadequate..

 

[ejecta]

^

You at every turn have misrepresented people's point that is opposite of yours in this argument.... while the symantic tap dance you are doing is impressive it is at the same time moronic and sounds just like someone who sells the lie fed to music gear buyers.

 

[stephen sawall]

No matter how much you adjust the gear....no two players sound the same.

 

[paulyc]

Tone is in the hands is A CROCK OF SHIT and I'll prove it...take any 2 guitar band, for instance Ratt, Judas Priest, Night Ranger...whoever, and tell me which guy played what based ONLY on the sound of what's being played, NOT by what is BEING played. I can't tell Robin from Warren by the sound only, but I can only tell from what is being played. Those guys were all using very similar gear recorded at the same studio with the same equipment by the same engineer/producer and all those 2 guitar bands have the same sound from each guy...

 

[Zachman]

No matter how much you adjust the gear....no two players sound the same.

Agreed! When speaking Stylistically, and of Personal expression, and Touch but

Tone prints, Profiles and others like Rockstah aka Mark A's VH tone clips etc... illustrate that the tone's are achievable without the fingers of the original-- Playing content not withstanding.

Just saying...

 

[spliffsperlunk]

Are there any supplements out there for Tone deficient hands?

 

[Zachman]

Are there any supplements out there for Tone deficient hands?

Just as there is no substitute for practice, there is also no substitute for talent, revealed through practice-- but "tone" deficient hands (?), or do you mean to suggest unpracticed or undiscovered talent potential or talent deficient hands; your meaning is unclear-- See-- the phrase is wholly inadequate and leads to a greater likelihood of misunderstanding.

 

['63-Strat]

No matter how much you adjust the gear....no two players sound the same.

Agreed! When speaking Stylistically, and of Personal expression, and Touch but

Tone prints, Profiles and others like Rockstah aka Mark A's VH tone clips etc... illustrate that the tone's are achievable without the fingers of the original-- Playing content not withstanding.

Just saying...

Nope. Rockstah's clips were/are a combination of him spending a lot of time playing that style AND making an amp that handled the gear side. No way is anyone just plugging into that amp sounding the same.

 

[Zachman]

No matter how much you adjust the gear....no two players sound the same.

Agreed! When speaking Stylistically, and of Personal expression, and Touch but

Tone prints, Profiles and others like Rockstah aka Mark A's VH tone clips etc... illustrate that the tone's are achievable without the fingers of the original-- Playing content not withstanding.

Just saying...

Nope. Rockstah's clips were/are a combination of him spending a lot of time playing that style AND making an amp that handled the gear side. No way is anyone just plugging into that amp sounding the same.

You seem to be unwilling to engage the points I brought up, and it appears you believe I am suggesting that the player doesn't clearly impact tone??

 

['63-Strat]

Pot calling the kettle black, man, lol. Look, I know you're a good guy so please understand I'm not trying to be a dick first of all. But what points are you trying to bring up exactly? That gear plays a part? Of course it does. That certain gear sounds different and certain gear sounds subjectively better? I think we all agree on that already, honestly.

Where we disagree it seems, is merely a matter of percentages. Let's forget the hyperbole. No one's saying their fingers sound can impart the tone of a recto or a champ on command, they can't. But I can plug into any given guy's EXACT rig -Hendrix/SRV/Clapton/whoever and I will not sound like them. You wanna argue the "tone" is the same? Fine. But then that level of tone isn't that important to me. Of course a plexi sounds like a plexi and a great strat sounds like a great strat, great fuzz sounds like a great fuzz. No one's arguing that, it's kind of moot. But let's say I'm playing Stevie's #1 through his pedal board and his amps and he's playing a RI strat through RI pedals and RI amps. Who's going to nail that tone better? Even assuming I can play his style "as well" as he does, which I can't. Obviously he's gonna kick the living shit out of me playing wise/tone-wise/whatever-wise for that sound.

So when I, or even any pro I've known over my entire life says tone is in the hands that's what they're talking about. You are 100% free to disagree vehemently but you are in the minority on this.

 

[Zachman]

Pot calling the kettle black, man, lol. Look, I know you're a good guy so please understand I'm not trying to be a dick first of all. But what points are you trying to bring up exactly? That gear plays a part? Of course it does. That certain gear sounds different and certain gear sounds subjectively better? I think we all agree on that already, honestly.

Where we disagree it seems, is merely a matter of percentages. Let's forget the hyperbole. No one's saying their fingers sound can impart the tone of a recto or a champ on command, they can't. But I can plug into any given guy's EXACT rig -Hendrix/SRV/Clapton/whoever and I will not sound like them. You wanna argue the "tone" is the same? Fine. But then that level of tone isn't that important to me. Of course a plexi sounds like a plexi and a great strat sounds like a great strat, great fuzz sounds like a great fuzz. No one's arguing that, it's kind of moot. But let's say I'm playing Stevie's #1 through his pedal board and his amps and he's playing a RI strat through RI pedals and RI amps. Who's going to nail that tone better? Even assuming I can play his style "as well" as he does, which I can't. Obviously he's gonna kick the living shit out of me playing wise/tone-wise/whatever-wise for that sound.

So when I, or even any pro I've known over my entire life says tone is in the hands that's what they're talking about. You are 100% free to disagree vehemently but you are in the minority on this.

To me, the phrase 'Tone is in the hands'-- using the understanding that you're outlining, seems redundant, and entirely inadequate. I mean of course whomever (insert player's name) is going to sound like themselves-- who else would they sound like?

Seems like something that goes without saying, yet some seem to like the saying-- too bad it (the saying) doesn't articulate what it means-- to the 'tone is in the hands/fingers' camp, as it reads -- was my only point, especially on a gear forum, as opposed to a "Music/Songwriter" forum.

Ultimately good tone is only good tone in context, and only important if one can play something interesting enough for somone to listen to in the 1st place, so again, the saying tone is in the hands seems less than useful/helpful, imo-- on a gear forum-- especially one called Rig-Talk, but on most any other forum too, as there are likely WAY more amateurs discussing guitar related gear (who may never attain a level of the SRV's, and EVH's)., yet enjoy the "tones" of certain players, and reach to get as close as they can, and come to gear forums to help facilitate that goal. Saying to that guy, tone is in the hands just seems lame... again imo

My $.02

 

[Lord Toneking]

Some of my buddies love the tone of my amp when I'm playing thru it. When they play thru it they hate it

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Pot calling the kettle black, man, lol. Look, I know you're a good guy so please understand I'm not trying to be a dick first of all. But what points are you trying to bring up exactly? That gear plays a part? Of course it does. That certain gear sounds different and certain gear sounds subjectively better? I think we all agree on that already, honestly.

Where we disagree it seems, is merely a matter of percentages. Let's forget the hyperbole. No one's saying their fingers sound can impart the tone of a recto or a champ on command, they can't. But I can plug into any given guy's EXACT rig -Hendrix/SRV/Clapton/whoever and I will not sound like them. You wanna argue the "tone" is the same? Fine. But then that level of tone isn't that important to me. Of course a plexi sounds like a plexi and a great strat sounds like a great strat, great fuzz sounds like a great fuzz. No one's arguing that, it's kind of moot. But let's say I'm playing Stevie's #1 through his pedal board and his amps and he's playing a RI strat through RI pedals and RI amps. Who's going to nail that tone better? Even assuming I can play his style "as well" as he does, which I can't. Obviously he's gonna kick the living shit out of me playing wise/tone-wise/whatever-wise for that sound.

So when I, or even any pro I've known over my entire life says tone is in the hands that's what they're talking about. You are 100% free to disagree vehemently but you are in the minority on this.

Not sure why this is even argued.... amp makes the "sound" but the player makes the concept of "tone" by his style. You are 100% correct. Angus will sound like Angus through a recto because his vibrato, attack, and phrasing. Might sound a bit off and he'll dial in a lower gain setting, but it will still sound closer than me trying to be angus through a plexi and an SG.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Ultimately good tone is only good tone in context, and only important if one can play something interesting enough for somone to listen to in the 1st place, so again, the saying tone is in the hands seems less than useful/helpful, imo-- on a gear forum-- especially one called Rig-Talk, but on most any other forum too, as there are likely WAY more amateurs discussing guitar related gear (who may never attain a level of the SRV's, and EVH's)., yet enjoy the "tones" of certain players, and reach to get as close as they can, and come to gear forums to help facilitate that goal. Saying to that guy, tone is in the hands just seems lame... again imo

That's because gear whores always think that their tone quest for XYZ tone ends with their amp, or pedals, or guitar, or string gauge, or pickups.... there are so many people complaining about their 5153's not sounding like VH or Jake E Lee yet they work just fine for both those guys.. i think people are tricking their ears into believing that what they hear is JUST the amp. It isn't, it is the whole picture. Shenker is another guy.. he sounds like him whenever he plays a lead. He could play that on a pignose and you still won't cop him.

 

[Zachman]

Ultimately good tone is only good tone in context, and only important if one can play something interesting enough for somone to listen to in the 1st place, so again, the saying tone is in the hands seems less than useful/helpful, imo-- on a gear forum-- especially one called Rig-Talk, but on most any other forum too, as there are likely WAY more amateurs discussing guitar related gear (who may never attain a level of the SRV's, and EVH's)., yet enjoy the "tones" of certain players, and reach to get as close as they can, and come to gear forums to help facilitate that goal. Saying to that guy, tone is in the hands just seems lame... again imo

That's because gear whores always think that their tone quest for XYZ tone ends with their amp, or pedals, or guitar, or string gauge, or pickups.... there are so many people complaining about their 5153's not sounding like VH or Jake E Lee yet they work just fine for both those guys.. i think people are tricking their ears into believing that what they hear is JUST the amp. It isn't, it is the whole picture. Shenker is another guy.. he sounds like him whenever he plays a lead. He could play that on a pignose and you still won't cop him.

What can I say, I make the distinction between being able to play vs the content of what one is playing vs getting a tone (Live or in the studio), vs using a tone in a specific context, for what one plays-- and so has every audio engineer I've ever worked with, because what one plays and how proficiently one plays is not the same thing as the Tone of the instrument. Schenker playing the same thing through a Pignose vs his normal rig would of course play like Schenker, however I suggest the 'Tone' wouldn't be the same, despite the same fingers playing

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

fair argument, but I think he might ACTUALLY sound more like his rig through a pignose than you think. Se here for an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKiFBZnppuU - tiny little practice amp solid state.

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH1-nu68T7k - hard to hear Shenker but you can put make it out. mic that shitty single and put it on an album and it will still have "the tone".

That's my counterpoint. I get what you are saying about the right tool but I would argue that the most important tool are the hands when it comes to tone.

 

['63-Strat]

This one too.