What's going on with the used market?

[RJF]

I think the problem lies with an overly saturated supply of new amps, everyone wants the latest thing which makes it hard to sell the previous latest and greatest. There are only so many amps that the public can absorb!

I agree, I think this is the problem with the used prices on Diezel amps. Not that they are yesterday's greatest, because they are still at the top today, but more that they used to be a true "boutique" manufacturer with limited numbers produced. I think now there has been enough of them made, the VH4 in particular, that a saturation point has been met. If you want a VH4, you can find 3+ of them right now for sale and take your pic. Used to be you had to wait for a used Diezel amp just to come up for sale.

 

[prsplayer86]

So here is my take on our market of dying used/new gear value.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone of us that goes to concerts/shows on a regular basis has noticed the decline in attendance... Live music (with small exceptions) is dying at a stupid fast pace. Im talking strictly the small club/venue circuit. It's really depressing when you think back 5 years and remember venues that packed out for even marginally decent local bands... now virtually empty on Friday-Saturday nights.

Its not just one area either. I've seen it in Denver, OKC, Dallas, Austin, Houston, Saint Louis, New Orleans, Miami, Shriveport, Lexington, Fort. Smith. The appeal of going out on a Friday to catch a live band is a dying past-time imho. Getting into the why's and how to overcome/adapt that issue is best suited for another thread, but I think its one of the main reasons the used market started to fall and fall hard.

Simply put... local weekend warrior played 4-6 times monthly in 2 to three cities in 2007. Made roughly 1,000-1,500 (250 a show) for his cut.. He could buy gear monthly, and spend good money on good gear.

Local weekend warrior plays once a month in 1 city in 2014.... He makes 100-150 for his cut. ..He can buy Ihop after the show, pay his tab, and get a bloody marry the next day for the hang over.

Also, 100 watters just aren't moving off of shelves anymore. 15-60 watt amps are the only tube tech that's moving consistently at the moment.

 

[Stealthtastic]

I disagree that the market is "down". I think the market is about where it ought to be. Musical gear has always depreciated big time ever since I've been playing. Used gear in pristine condition has always gone for about 50-60% of new prices. I don't understands people asking 80-90% of new retail price for something which I see all the time. And then wondering why it doesn't move? The "right" price for something is always what someone else is willing to pay for it, not what you arbitrarily think its worth.

Haha exactly. I also think a lot of people are forgetting how old some gear is, its almost 2015 now and a used recto is likely 10+ years old if you're in the market.

 

[blackba]

I was far from a flipper, but I used to buy and sell gear on a somewhat frequent basis. I could role the dice, buy something used and flip it if it didn't work out for me. Now its so hard to sell anything and even get your money back. So while part of it is that I have gear I really like, I am also gun shy to pull the trigger.

For an example, I have a Vox AC50 head from the 60's that I really like. In the past I would have been searching for a vintage AC30 to run head to head and keep what I like best. Now I am just enjoying my AC50 and not even looking for an AC30.

It will be interesting to see the used prices of some of the new amps that have been released in the coming years. I will be monitoring the Mesa TA15 and Mark 5:25. Interested to see what those are selling for in a few years.

 

[prsplayer86]

I was far from a flipper, but I used to buy and sell gear on a somewhat frequent basis. I could role the dice, buy something used and flip it if it didn't work out for me. Now its so hard to sell anything and even get your money back. So while part of it is that I have gear I really like, I am also gun shy to pull the trigger.

For an example, I have a Vox AC50 head from the 60's that I really like. In the past I would have been searching for a vintage AC30 to run head to head and keep what I like best. Now I am just enjoying my AC50 and not even looking for an AC30.

It will be interesting to see the used prices of some of the new amps that have been released in the coming years. I will be monitoring the Mesa TA15 and Mark 5:25. Interested to see what those are selling for in a few years.

I know what you mean, I bought a 1953 fender deluxe not to long ago for 1300 cash. Thought I'd make about 800-1000... Within a week 2 of the same thing sold for 1350 and 1275 on ebay... WTF?!?!?! lol. Broke even, thats all I could ask for I suppose.

 

[Elric]

Another Theory: It's the fallout from the "Guitar Hero" generation... I'm awesome at GH, I'm going to learn to play for realz! Oh sh*t this is hard! <crickets>... I need cash! Look at all this junk! Commence used gear unloading in 3,2,1...

 

[dirtyfunkg]

Another Theory: It's the fallout from the "Guitar Hero" generation... I'm awesome at GH, I'm going to learn to play for realz! Oh sh*t this is hard! <crickets>... I need cash! Look at all this junk! Commence used gear unloading in 3,2,1...

I don't think so. More and more it makes sense that it's market saturation. So many boutique companies are popping up that the former "boutique" high gain companies like Mesa, Soldano, etc... even Fryette, Diezel, and Bogner don't really have the pull they used to have. Everyone is looking for the next big thing. Mako and Mills were the shit three years ago, now a Mak4 sits in the classifieds at $800. Fryette/VHT Fatbottom 412's are out there to be had at sub $400 prices. Dual Rectifiers in the $700-800 range.

It's interesting that the vintage market is down also per a couple of the previous posts. Is it because there are so many clones of vintage amps that the originals themselves no longer have the premium value?

 

[RJF]

As far as saturation, I think that the boutique companies that have been around a long time, like Diezel and VHT, even though build stuff in limited numbers, have built enough units over the years that it's reached a saturation point for the used market. There's a bunch of VH4's and UL's out there at this point.

If this Friedman fad continues, it will be the same way in 10 years. There will be enough BE100's out there that there will always be a couple for sale at the same time, driving the price down.

 

[siggy14]

So here is my take on our market of dying used/new gear value.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone of us that goes to concerts/shows on a regular basis has noticed the decline in attendance... Live music (with small exceptions) is dying at a stupid fast pace. Im talking strictly the small club/venue circuit. It's really depressing when you think back 5 years and remember venues that packed out for even marginally decent local bands... now virtually empty on Friday-Saturday nights.

Its not just one area either. I've seen it in Denver, OKC, Dallas, Austin, Houston, Saint Louis, New Orleans, Miami, Shriveport, Lexington, Fort. Smith. The appeal of going out on a Friday to catch a live band is a dying past-time imho. Getting into the why's and how to overcome/adapt that issue is best suited for another thread, but I think its one of the main reasons the used market started to fall and fall hard.

Simply put... local weekend warrior played 4-6 times monthly in 2 to three cities in 2007. Made roughly 1,000-1,500 (250 a show) for his cut.. He could buy gear monthly, and spend good money on good gear.

Local weekend warrior plays once a month in 1 city in 2014.... He makes 100-150 for his cut. ..He can buy Ihop after the show, pay his tab, and get a bloody marry the next day for the hang over.

Also, 100 watters just aren't moving off of shelves anymore. 15-60 watt amps are the only tube tech that's moving consistently at the moment.

Yup, concert going is down, but I think more the reason has to do with people just do not have the extra income right now to pay for concert tickets anymore. In DC the 930 club still sells out when ever the current indie rock scene band is playing because there are so many colleges in DC and young professionals that listen to that music and have the extra income or scratch together enough to go see a band they love.

However the bigger groups who have been around for awhile, their fans are in the older group who have house payments and kids etc.. and cant afford to spend 80 dollars on one ticket.

Then you got people like Taylor Swift and Lady GaGa who have such a wide appeal and sell out huge venues because that is the one show a year older people are willing to pay for and young enough people want to see.

But you are right, the local weekend warrior is suffering because people just do not have the money to go out and drink at a bar.

 

[siggy14]

Saturation is the key word, so many companies make guitars and amps now and so many choices that it is keeping prices down. Only newer amps that are in high demand which have not saturated the market still get high dollar. Examples Mesa Mark V, EVH 5150 III 50 watters and Gibson Historic series.

Now the EVH 50 watt head is starting to saturate a little so prices are going down as you can get them now for about $650-$700 used compared to a year ago where they were going $750 to $800 used. Same with the Mark V's, you are seeing more of them going for about $1400 to $1500 instead of $1600 to $1900 range, it will be only time before they are down to the $1200 price range where they will stick for awhile until the next version comes out and drops it down further.

The latest version of Axe still remains high on the used market due to the limit availabilty, but the old standards and ultra's you can get pretty cheap now compared to two years ago.

Also enough factor is the popularity of a company, right now Mesa's are not big in favor so the rectos sell pretty cheap, only ones holding their value are the early 2 channels and the reborns, but even the reborns are starting to come down in price.

 

[RedB4Black]

It's been depressed for quite awhile imo. What moves in the classifieds is very specific and priced accurately to sell (imo).

I notice some ads are listed with prices as if it was still pre-2008 and they just sit...

Agreed. Lots of over-priced gear languishing in the classifieds. I'm not sure if people are in denial about what their stuff is currently worth or what. People should research what asking prices have been before pricing their stuff. $25 incremental price drops aren't gonna make it sell any faster either.

 

[siggy14]

It's been depressed for quite awhile imo. What moves in the classifieds is very specific and priced accurately to sell (imo).

I notice some ads are listed with prices as if it was still pre-2008 and they just sit...

Agreed. Lots of over-priced gear languishing in the classifieds. I'm not sure if people are in denial about what their stuff is currently worth or what. People should research what asking prices have been before pricing their stuff. $25 incremental price drops aren't gonna make it sell any faster either.

There is a lot overpriced, but there is also stuff that is normal priced still sitting ( I have two items) but there is also stuff that is priced really well and sitting, example someone is selling a Marshall 6100 for $699, yes it is the 5881 version but still a great amp and a great price.

 

[RedB4Black]

It's been depressed for quite awhile imo. What moves in the classifieds is very specific and priced accurately to sell (imo).

I notice some ads are listed with prices as if it was still pre-2008 and they just sit...

Agreed. Lots of over-priced gear languishing in the classifieds. I'm not sure if people are in denial about what their stuff is currently worth or what. People should research what asking prices have been before pricing their stuff. $25 incremental price drops aren't gonna make it sell any faster either.

There is a lot overpriced, but there is also stuff that is normal priced still sitting ( I have two items) but there is also stuff that is priced really well and sitting, example someone is selling a Marshall 6100 for $699, yes it is the 5881 version but still a great amp and a great price.

The problem is that there is a new normal in gear prices. While your price is fair, I paid less than you are currently asking for your Mesa Reborn triple for a near brand new one earlier this year. I think you need to be aggressive in pricing if you want stuff to sell these days. Certainly have the cheapest one available if it's a common piece of gear.

 

[siggy14]

It's been depressed for quite awhile imo. What moves in the classifieds is very specific and priced accurately to sell (imo).

I notice some ads are listed with prices as if it was still pre-2008 and they just sit...

Agreed. Lots of over-priced gear languishing in the classifieds. I'm not sure if people are in denial about what their stuff is currently worth or what. People should research what asking prices have been before pricing their stuff. $25 incremental price drops aren't gonna make it sell any faster either.

There is a lot overpriced, but there is also stuff that is normal priced still sitting ( I have two items) but there is also stuff that is priced really well and sitting, example someone is selling a Marshall 6100 for $699, yes it is the 5881 version but still a great amp and a great price.

The problem is that there is a new normal in gear prices. While your price is fair, I paid less than you are currently asking for your Mesa Reborn triple for a near brand new one earlier this year. I think you need to be aggressive in pricing if you want stuff to sell these days. Certainly have the cheapest one available if it's a common piece of gear.

How much did you pay? average price these days is about $1100 to $1200

 

[kasperjensen]

You definitely need to price it to sell.

Around here, there are so many people selling their used equipment, but they aren't willing to accept that it is in fact... Used.

If I am buying used, I am not doing it to save 10 or 20%. I won't completely low-ball someone either just because I know they are in a tight spot.

I am not going to pay 850 for a 1000 amp, that "has hardly been used. Only for a few recordings. Manual and original box". 650... Now we are in a place that makes sense for both of us, kinda.

And that, at least here, is what is stalling the market.

 

[siggy14]

You definitely need to price it to sell.

Around here, there are so many people selling their used equipment, but they aren't willing to accept that it is in fact... Used.

If I am buying used, I am not doing it to save 10 or 20%. I won't completely low-ball someone either just because I know they are in a tight spot.

I am not going to pay 850 for a 1000 amp, that "has hardly been used. Only for a few recordings. Manual and original box". 650... Now we are in a place that makes sense for both of us, kinda.

And that, at least here, is what is stalling the market.

It really depends on the item and price margin and the demand, my triple for sale is priced about 45% off what someone would have to pay for it and everyone knows Mesa Does not discount. Back when the reborns first came out they were selling only about 20% off list and people where snapping them up because it was still a $400 discount. But I agree with you, on most items you can get 10 to 20% off just by talking to the dealer and using a coupon so it makes no sense to buy a used one, once again only exception is Mesa with there pricing policy.

 

[gibson5413]

I'm happy to be content with my gear. No offense to those that like to buy and try new things but being happy with what I have is saving me money in the long run. I am very careful about what I add at this point (only looking to add two new items over the next month or two). I only buy what I need and play regularly. I just don't see the used market getting better. If you buy new be ready to take a loss or vet out the process so you know it fits your needs for the long term. The older I get the less I am swayed by gear trends and swings. Limited budget means I need to put in the time to find what I like in advance. A wife and four kids demands this approach. ; )

Good luck to those selling gear regularly!

 

[Shiny_Surface]

The problem is that there is a new normal in gear prices.

I agree Matt, that's a good way to putting it.

There are some specific micro markets trending up in prices related to the item being collectable and/or limited supply/higher demand.

Other than that you need to separate yourself from the pack if you want to sell. There is more supply than demand for a lot of gear that even just recently was holding fairly steady regarding their used value.

And going off on a bit of a tangent here in today's climate the devil is in the details more than ever when creating a for sale ad, of course these are just my opinions.

- Don't be lazy with a quick frontal picture. Take pics that document the condition of the item completely/accurately.

- Price aggressively.

- Roll the paypal fee's (if you take paypal) and possibly shipping (depending on how far you're willing to ship of course) if possible into one price. Buyers don't like having to do additional math they want to see one all inclusive price (another imo disclaimer). Then offer a discount if the buyer is willing to pay via money order or other acceptable alternative means.

I have more things to say but I don't want to go off on too much of a rant here so I'll stop there lol.

 

[bigangryguitar]

There are so many valid points in this thread but the one that jumps out at me is that the live music scene isn't what it was a few years ago as well as a ton of the big name bands going with the digital modeling stuff. When I was younger I would drool over the brand x half stack my favorite guitarist used. Now it seems most of those bands are just using fractal stuff (nothing wrong with that either). It also seems too that rock music in general isn't in vogue right now so with less kids hearing it on the radio there are less of them wanting to pick up a guitar and become the next guy wanting to buy that ultra cool boutique amp.

_Shane

 

[FUZZboat]

after reading thru one gets the impression the age guitar rock is over, gone & history