How to deal with small amp builders?

CECamps · Apr 22, 2012

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
True. The up front 1/2 down adds to the customer frustration though. I just don't see why it is necessary.

Because if you are building something for someone, you'd like a commitment from them to follow through.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
That's great that your customers dig your amps. I don't understand though. If you have sold amps, you've made a profit, right? Why not put that profit back into the business and do a run of amps? What are you doing with the profits? What was your business plan to get to the point where customers could just buy an amp from you without waiting or deposits?

Of course I've made a profit. What do I do with it? Put it back into the business.

I'm spending around $7k on my Summer NAMM exhibition. I didn't pull it out of my ass though. I do small production runs of amps. I'm in one now as a matter of fact. And some customers have left deposits even! Crazy!

I also regularly invest in tools & equipment. I just contracted out some CAD work that I wasn't able to do myself which will eventually lead to more streamlining of my processes. Etc., etc. I rarely pay myself, I'd rather my business grow more at this point.

It might be useful to understand that I don't build my amps from cheapy carbon film resistors, orange drop caps, and no-name transformers. I build high end stuff. If I was building amps comparable in materials quality to what is mass produced by & large, I could afford to do larger runs.

At any rate, my business plan has worked and continues to work. Again, my customers don't care about leaving deposits. People that do care won't come to me for an amp I guess. And that's fine.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
I never said that product inventory was a end-all measure of business and I never said you shouldn't have customer support. No idea where you got that from what I've written...

I suppose I thought you were implying that not having large quantities of product in inventory was a big problem. It seems to be something you continually rag on in your responses. And thusly, building a large production run is the way to go, carte blanche.

Wouldn't work for me. I run a service-heavy business. Not everyone wants their amp bone stock.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
There's that mentality again. No it isn't apples/oranges, it is a generic business thing. In fact, it is the same exact thing.

So once you have developed a software product, every time someone orders the product you have to re-code it from the ground up?

Comparing the software industry to the custom amp manufacturing industry is apples & oranges whether you believe it or not.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Just because someone takes a deposit doesn't mean they are doing it because they can't keep stock.

That's what I've been trying to tell you.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
You have this guy build you custom transformers. He wants some skin in the game from you that you are actually gonna buy them. Read what I wrote before about custom stuff - I totally get deposits on that because it is a one off for one person.

He doesn't even keep inventory of his stock spec offerings. Want his stock transformers? Pay in full up front and he builds to order. Same with EDCOR. Same with a lot of OEM suppliers.

And it's not a problem. Like I said, he's OEM for THD, Fortin, Rhodes, Soldano (except the SLO), and a host of other mfgrs.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Fuck yea, man. Anyone can do whatever they want and do it any way they see fit. And in this industry it'll work because of the "cult of personality" and weak gear freaks I brought up before. Won't fly in other businesses and it doesn't mean I have to like it or consider it a real business...

As Baron pointed out, it flies in plenty of other industries. In some it doesn't. But it's cool.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
As I said, it's a free country. You can do whatever you want. There some things you've said that are just flat wrong about business like the idea that deposits are revenue and that it somehow doesn't make sense to rick your cash not knowing demand, but that is moot. You and your customers seem to be diggin' what you do and I've got no problem with that. It isn't going to change my opinion of how I think a business should be run... Once again, I'm not telling anyone what they should do, just what I think...

Right on. I mean, I've "ricked" plenty of cash. Not sure where I'm losing you there.

I consider deposits revenue because I don't need them to fund my business. The product will ship, as it always does, guaranteed. Of course, QuickBooks, or any accountant isn't going to label the funds as revenue until the product ships. I get it, I'm not an idiot. I guess you guys aren't understanding what I'm saying though. But that's fine, I'm not going to go around in circles on this.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Doesn't mean I have to like it.

Of course not. Doesn't change anything if you don't though.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
That has nothing to do with what I wrote. I'm sorry you can't see my point.

"Dude... once again, I have to laugh here... Can't you see that everything you are saying here is THE PROBLEM with people in the gear business?"

What was your point, then? Seems to me that your idea of "the problem" is that people take deposits before building amps. My rebuttal was that taking up-front money has little to do with the problem. The problem is people being in business who probably shouldn't.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
The generic principles of running a business that I'm speaking of can be applied to any business of any size, in any industry. I haven't discussed anything that is size specific except using VCs and angel investors and the only principle I'm exhibiting is raising capital. Hey man, you've owned three businesses and are calling deposits revenue, so I dunno what to say about how your experience correlates to general business knowledge.

Nice.

Perhaps you can take a second to try and understand my point instead of presuming I'm talking about the point in time when numbers transpose onto the income account in the books.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
And your point is?

My point is that this is the nature of small business. Particularly small custom amp manufacturers. If a custom part is required for a custom amp, then there is lead time involved. It's a pretty simple concept.

All the other aspects of small business is something I personally take into consideration when I patronize one. I don't expect anyone to grovel to me about it, but I as the consumer understand the implications of what I'm getting into.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Hey man, no need to give me your resume. You have nothing to prove to me and we are just having a discussion and nothing I'm saying is meant to be a personal attacks. I may have been a bit dramatic and I've made a few jokes, but as I said, you seem like a good dude and I appreciate the discussion. That said, I wouldn't have guessed you studied business in college.

No offense taken. Even the subtle jab there at the end. It's cool.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
I'm happy to agree to disagree, but I'll stand on my statements that I'm discussing general business principles that are applicable to any business in any industry.

I think that a lot of the principles you discuss can more accurately be described as applying to some businesses in a variety of industries.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Let's be honest here. Aren't they all ripped off circuits? Is there really anything so new and revolutionary under the sun in tube amps? I think not. It's all flavors of things that have been done with our own twists. I'm an electrical engineer - I've been inside lots of tube amps. They are all variations on previous themes...

So I guess we can use the same logic on internal combustion engines, then. Yeah? I mean, fuel and compressed air are ignited in a combustion chamber. Nothing much has changed.

The same logic can be applied to any piece of engineering.

But from the standpoint of the system as a whole, that logic isn't as applicable. I hope you can, as an engineer, see my point there.

It isn't any single triode amplifier stage that makes an amp. It's the system as a whole.

Just like a 1.8 liter VTEC engine made by Honda isn't "just a variation" of a pushrod 302 made by Ford. Both essentially do the same thing (use pistons to compress air in the combustion chambers, inject fuel, ignite mixture, make power), but they ain't the same. Not even close.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Refer to rlord's post or crack one of you old business books. Deposits are not revenue.

Again, I'm not talking about accounting for the cash flow on paper in my statement.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
I'm unaware of anything truly new in the realm of tube amp design, but if you've invented something new, I commend you on that. Every amp design I've seen has been built on a variation of what has come before as tube amps are very simple circuits. I see a lot of Marshall/Fender cloners out there, but it seems to me there are a lot of people adding their own twist to something that has come before like I suspect you are, but hey, Once again, if you've invented something truly new, kudos.

Goes back to what I stated above (engine comparison). Micro vs. macro.

This is another debate though.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
I never said you were running a bad business, although I could see how you could miss the subtlety of my statements. I meant it is bad business practice to make your customers investors. That is not saying that you are running a bad business overall.

Understood. But I think that should be left up to the customer to decide, no? It's kind of a case-by-case issue.

sah5150":335ynhq6 said:
Once again, I enjoy reading your thoughts and appreciate your spirit of discussion. Also, I am talking about general business principles here and don't mean to attack you personally, regardless of whether we disagree with aspects of how you run your business. I feel that you have taken some of my statements very personally and I understand it, but I am only trying to illustrate my points in the context of things you've said. I've made some comments having a bit of fun at your expense in other posts. I hope you have a sense of humor about them, but if not, I apologize if you take offense...

Steve

Yep, it's a great discussion and a great topic for debate. That's why I poked my head in. I'm not offended by what anyone thinks about the way I run my business--mainly because no one knows how I run it anyways. :lol:

For the record, I'm not in support of the manufacturer in question in this thread. I have no idea who it is, but going back to the original point--all arguments about modes of operation aside--the builder should be honest and open in terms of communication.

guitarslayer · Apr 22, 2012

TeleBlaster":26x08h9w said:
Seriously, hope you have a good credit card company. At this point I would be after recovery of funds. These empty promises could go on literally for years and years. Cameron is much like the Titanic in that their greatest contribution has been to serve as a warning to others.

Cameron is not good with turn around times? is that what you meant or did I miss understand?

Anonymous · Apr 22, 2012

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Because if you are building something for someone, you'd like a commitment from them to follow through.

Read what you wrote in one of your earlier posts. You said that taking deposits is good business because it provides revenue to run the business. That is what I'm talking about and, really man, you know it. You seem to jump to different sides of this argument if you ask me... I already agreed that taking deposits for truly custom work is the only way to insure the guy ordering has skin in the game. So... which is it, now?

Look, you seem to do a lot of custom work. You should take deposits. I'm talking about others that take deposits for production amps. There is no reason for that because if one person doesn't buy it another will, or else you built something no one wants. It isn't the same as building something completely custom that only one person really wants...

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
I didn't pull it out of my ass though. I do small production runs of amps. I'm in one now as a matter of fact.

So what are you arguing with me for? This is exactly what I was suggesting people do. If you can't do 10 (which I don't consider a large production run, anyway), do 5, let people know, do whatever custom work you do and sell those. You're making my point for me. You don't need to take deposits to do this unless there is serious, one off custom work no one else will want. I mean if we're talking about adding a bass boost switch or an effects loop - someone else will want that. I don't see the big deal, unless it is a custom design, not just a small add-on to an existing amp that many people will want.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
I suppose I thought you were implying that not having large quantities of product in inventory was a big problem. It seems to be something you continually rag on in your responses. And thusly, building a large production run is the way to go, carte blanche.

I haven't been ragging on anything except for people taking deposits to run their businesses and providing shitty delivery estimates and customer service.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Wouldn't work for me. I run a service-heavy business. Not everyone wants their amp bone stock.

What are you doing to these things? Are you completely re-designing them as one-offs that only one person (or very few) would buy? Or are you adding loops, footswitchable features, etc. that others could reasonably want?

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
So once you have developed a software product, every time someone orders the product you have to re-code it from the ground up?

The points I was making about business principles of operation were not specific to software or any product. I never said that all businesses have identical models, which, would of course be ridiculous. You're just being diversionary for no reason. You know what I meant, but you have no answer, so you focus on something that has nothing to do with the points I was making about not building your product on the customer's dime and planing for how you are going to fund all stages of growth of the business.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Comparing the software industry to the custom amp manufacturing industry is apples & oranges whether you believe it or not.

Ok, once again, I have been talking about small builders selling their production amps, not completely custom amps on a one-off basis. If you are just adding some features to an existing platform that other guitarists could reasonable want, you are not building custom one-off amps IMO. Also, once again, the business principles of operation I'm talking about have nothing to do with size or industry. Don't build your business using customers as investors and figure out how to fund all stages of your business. All applicable to any business. Are we clear now?

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
That's what I've been trying to tell you.

You originally tried to tell me that deposits are part of a wonderful business model that allows you to get revenue to fund your business. Now you're all about how it's to ensure skin in the game for the one-off custom amp business you're in. Which is it?

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
He doesn't even keep inventory of his stock spec offerings. Want his stock transformers? Pay in full up front and he builds to order. Same with EDCOR. Same with a lot of OEM suppliers.

I guess I don't want his transformers then, because I'd only pay for stock transformers when they ship to me.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Right on. I mean, I've "ricked" plenty of cash. Not sure where I'm losing you there.

That's quite a clever use of my obviously, quickly typed misspelling. Well done!

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
I consider deposits revenue because I don't need them to fund my business.

It doesn't matter whether you consider it revenue or not. It isn't revenue until you deliver the product.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Of course not. Doesn't change anything if you don't though.

I dunno. Maybe someone going into the gear biz will think about what I've said and chose another way of doing things. If I can just reach one... :lol:

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
What was your point, then? Seems to me that your idea of "the problem" is that people take deposits before building amps. My rebuttal was that taking up-front money has little to do with the problem. The problem is people being in business who probably shouldn't.

Read what you wrote, read what I wrote and it should be clear. I've also stated my issues twice in this response.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Perhaps you can take a second to try and understand my point instead of presuming I'm talking about the point in time when numbers transpose onto the income account in the books.

You made your point that you think it is a good business practice to take deposits to provide revenue for the business. Now it is to insure skin in the game for one-off custom work and you don't need the deposits to run your business. You are talking out both sides of your mouth here...

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
My point is that this is the nature of small business. Particularly small custom amp manufacturers. If a custom part is required for a custom amp, then there is lead time involved. It's a pretty simple concept.

All the other aspects of small business is something I personally take into consideration when I patronize one. I don't expect anyone to grovel to me about it, but I as the consumer understand the implications of what I'm getting into.

Exactly what is the nature of small business you speak of. I've been specifically talking about bullshit delivery timeframes, taking deposits for non-custom amps, rude/non-existent customer service, etc. This was what I was complaining about. Is this what I'm to expect? I don't understand what you're saying here...

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
So I guess we can use the same logic on internal combustion engines, then. Yeah? I mean, fuel and compressed air are ignited in a combustion chamber. Nothing much has changed.

The same logic can be applied to any piece of engineering.

But from the standpoint of the system as a whole, that logic isn't as applicable. I hope you can, as an engineer, see my point there.

It isn't any single triode amplifier stage that makes an amp. It's the system as a whole.

Just like a 1.8 liter VTEC engine made by Honda isn't "just a variation" of a pushrod 302 made by Ford. Both essentially do the same thing (use pistons to compress air in the combustion chambers, inject fuel, ignite mixture, make power), but they ain't the same. Not even close.

If you've invented something new, I'm happy for you. But, I dunno, a gain stage is a gain stage, there are certain parameters you can tweak to find your own voice, but it ain't re-inventing the wheel. Last innovation I've really seen was the modular stuff Egnater did.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Again, I'm not talking about accounting for the cash flow on paper in my statement.

But, that is the only thing that matters.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Understood. But I think that should be left up to the customer to decide, no? It's kind of a case-by-case issue.

As I said, I'm just as guilty as the next guy. I do things that in principle I don't agree with because I want something and I hope I don't get screwed. Doesn't make it right though or good business practice.

CECamps":bx8o10lp said:
Yep, it's a great discussion and a great topic for debate. That's why I poked my head in. I'm not offended by what anyone thinks about the way I run my business--mainly because no one knows how I run it anyways.

I'll agree with that. I only know the statements you've made in this thread. If you have happy customers and you are making some cash, more power to ya, man - you're doing better than most. And as I said, my comments are more generic about what I've experienced from other small gear guys, not you directly. I've not dealt with you, and as I said, you could be one of the good ones. I just disagree with some of the things you've said in the thread, that's all...

I think this may very well be my last response to you on this topic though. Getting all these quotes lined up right is driving me nuts! :lol:

Steve

rlord1974 · Apr 22, 2012

CECamps":a58px2zn said:
.....but going back to the original point - the builder should be honest and open in terms of communication.

'nuff said. Agreed! :thumbsup:

LP Freak · Apr 22, 2012

rlord1974":2zka4qke said:
CECamps":2zka4qke said:

.....but going back to the original point - the builder should be honest and open in terms of communication.

Click to expand...

'nuff said. Agreed!

Hey Rob, what are you drinking? :cheers:

rlord1974 · Apr 22, 2012

How did you know? :confused:

Pinot noir; and watching the Kings@Canucks. :cheers:

metalmaniac93 · Apr 22, 2012

rlord1974":3can5cvq said:
CECamps":3can5cvq said:

rlord1974":3can5cvq said:

On this point, I have to agree with Steve.

Deposits are NOT revenue - at least not in an accounting sense. They are actually LIABILITIES.

DR Cash
CR Unearned revenue liability
To recognize the receipt of a deposit on an unfulfilled customer order.

Once you complete the amp and deliver it to the customer, you can then convert the deposits into revenue.

DR Unearned revenue liability
CR Revenue
To recognize revenue on cash deposits, upon completion and delivery of merchandise to the customer.

Unless you are applying some kind of "percentage of completion" approach to revenue recognition - which is not typically permitted in a manufacturing business such as building guitar amplifiers - deposits simply do not qualify as accounting revenue.

As such, to say that deposits act as revenue to keep the company going is not accurate. You are in fact treating the deposits as financing to keep the company going. And, I can guarantee that if a builder told a customer making a deposit on an amp that "those funds will be used to cover the costs of servicing previous customers' amps", the customer would ask for a refund! This situation is a PERFECT real-life example of "borrowing from Peter in order to pay Paul".

Click to expand...

This is under the assumption of a pointed context--that there are no parts in stock when a deposit is taken and the funds are used to buy all the necessary parts.

Guys, I know that's the way a lot of folks operate. But as I mentioned before, it ain't all cut & dry across all small businesses. Be open to that possibility.

As I mentioned before, I am sitting on a tad under $10k of parts inventory. That inventory could go to build any number of different combinations of amps. Until I have what I feel is a good amount of sales trending to go by, I'm not gonna do any huge production run commitments. I'd rather use the parts to meet actual known demand. Crazy, huh?

Of course, according to Steve that's probably "bad business."

Click to expand...

Craig, not to beat a dead horse, but just because you happen to have some of the parts on hand you will need to fulfill a given order when you receive the related deposit does not, from an accounting sense, mean that the deposit can be treated as "revenue".

You do not get to recognize revenue on your income statement until such time as you have fulfilled your obligation to deliver a specified product (i.e., the amp) in the future. Until that product (i.e., the amp) is completed and delivered to the customer (we will ignore the various FOB shipping possibilities for the sake of simplicity and as they really have no bearing on the discussion), the deposit is not revenue. It is a cash receipt that is treated as a liability for accounting purposes. It does form a part of your business' "working capital" as it represents cash on hand to fund business activities, but it is not revenue.

Here's a very simplified example of why a deposit is not permitted to be treated as "revenue" for accounting purposes:
1) You take an order from a customer. Customer remits a deposit.
2) You recognize the deposit as revenue, even though you have not yet delivered the product and are not expected to do so for another 4 months.
3) Your customer changes his mind due to a delay and requests a full refund.

Does the refund represent an "expense"? Of course not! How can the return of a customer's cash represent an expense, when you never did anything to "earn" it as revenue to begin with?

When a business takes a deposit, it is essentially acting as a bank and holding a deposit liability until such time as the product or service initially contracted for is delivered to the customer.

All that being said, I'll tap out of this argument now.

I am still intrigued by that amp of yours (and I too have been guilty of placing "deposits" with builders in the past ). Can I find clips anywhere? Please let me know!

Well said!!!! :thumbsup:

metalmaniac93 · Apr 22, 2012

rlord1974":11awwvog said:
How did you know?

Pinot noir; and watching the Kings@Canucks.

Love the Pinot Noir and go Kings!!! :lol:

rlord1974 · Apr 22, 2012

Shawn Lutz · Apr 22, 2012

rlord1974":3u7mu1rr said:

Rioting if they lose in OT and head to golf course?

steve_k · Apr 22, 2012

sah5150":kwzvl138 said:
baron55":kwzvl138 said:

A lot of interesting points raised here and many have valid points.

Lets talk about deposits. There are many reasons for them, but lets talk about how they are used in big business and the way I uses them.

I use deposits to make sure the customer honors the deal/build agreement. Since all my amps are custom to a point, the deposit isn't for parts or funding the operation per say, but a way to protect myself if a customer breaks the agreement and doesn't want the amp after it was built. It is also motivation for the customer to also honor the agreement.

Take the aircraft industry. Unlike the car industry, aircraft are only made to order. Deposits are required upfront and non-refundable. This protects the manufacturer from having unsold inventory left over at the end of the year. If there is, they can be sold at a lower cost since the original deposit helps make up the difference. And these companies have been around for over 60+ years and are well established.

Just like deposits on rental homes, apartments, hotels, etc it to protect them from default.

So as others have said, deposits that are used to fund the operation per say, is a risky business model.

Click to expand...

I 100% agree with deposits for truly custom work. How else can you make sure someone has got some skin in the game for something that you built as a one off for them? You have to protect yourself...

And I also understand long wait times for custom work as well. As long as that is made clear up front, and delivery is made in some reasonable time period around what has been promised, there should be no problems

Steve

And this is how it should be and you guys are spot on from a good business perspective.

Just look at the huge blunder spawned right here on RT and deposits being taken on just a brain fart. Just goes to show that credible people can make some incredible mistakes.

Anonymous · Apr 22, 2012

steve_k":2hf8eg8e said:
sah5150":2hf8eg8e said:

baron55":2hf8eg8e said:

A lot of interesting points raised here and many have valid points.

Lets talk about deposits. There are many reasons for them, but lets talk about how they are used in big business and the way I uses them.

I use deposits to make sure the customer honors the deal/build agreement. Since all my amps are custom to a point, the deposit isn't for parts or funding the operation per say, but a way to protect myself if a customer breaks the agreement and doesn't want the amp after it was built. It is also motivation for the customer to also honor the agreement.

Take the aircraft industry. Unlike the car industry, aircraft are only made to order. Deposits are required upfront and non-refundable. This protects the manufacturer from having unsold inventory left over at the end of the year. If there is, they can be sold at a lower cost since the original deposit helps make up the difference. And these companies have been around for over 60+ years and are well established.

Just like deposits on rental homes, apartments, hotels, etc it to protect them from default.

So as others have said, deposits that are used to fund the operation per say, is a risky business model.

Click to expand...

I 100% agree with deposits for truly custom work. How else can you make sure someone has got some skin in the game for something that you built as a one off for them? You have to protect yourself...

And I also understand long wait times for custom work as well. As long as that is made clear up front, and delivery is made in some reasonable time period around what has been promised, there should be no problems

Steve

Click to expand...

And this is how it should be and you guys are spot on from a good business perspective.

Just look at the huge blunder spawned right here on RT and deposits being taken on just a brain fart. Just goes to show that credible people can make some incredible mistakes.

Well...it is a way to offset startup cost's,opening order cost's to manufacturer's, etc,etc...My how things have changed since I was in MI retail or...have they?? :confused:

snowdog · Apr 23, 2012

I'm guessing a few amps could have been made during the tedious dissecting of every sentence in this thread followed by another paragraph or two of replies.

MississippiMetal · Apr 23, 2012

Look out now. Bunch of real rock n' rollers in here, drinking wine and mulling over business details.

Bob Savage · Apr 23, 2012

CECamps":2f9x5f74 said:
Secondly, does it make business sense to take out a loan for a significant chunk of change to build up product that doesn't yet have any demand? It's an honest question.

The honest business 101 answer to this is that you don't start building products or start a business where you haven't done your research on your market. With the possible exception of ground breaking products where there is no like-product on the market, you've got to understand the market and demand first. Amplifiers of any kind fall into this category because there's nothing ground breaking about tube amps or even modelers at this point.

rlord1974 · Apr 23, 2012

Shawn Lutz":1vwwjhaw said:
rlord1974":1vwwjhaw said:

Click to expand...

Rioting if they lose in OT and head to golf course?

Yep. The Canuck's new post-season dream.....

FWIW, I am not even a Canucks fan! I just happen to be Canadian. :lol:

I was only rooting for the Canucks as my bro lives out in Vancouver and my team (The Leafs) haven't made the post season in SEVEN SEASONS! :doh:

Oh well, at least I won't be distracted by a Canucks game tonight, which should allow me to focus all of my attention on the.....

P.S. How are your Wings doing, Shawn?

rlord1974 · Apr 23, 2012

MississippiMetal":735ejgmx said:
Look out now. Bunch of real rock n' rollers in here, drinking wine and mulling over business details.

Haven't you heard what many men are saying? Rig-Talk is where the real serious men hang out.

Shawn Lutz · Apr 23, 2012

rlord1974":3up2jwto said:
Shawn Lutz":3up2jwto said:

rlord1974":3up2jwto said:

Click to expand...

Rioting if they lose in OT and head to golf course?

Click to expand...

Yep. The Canuck's new post-season dream.....

FWIW, I am not even a Canucks fan! I just happen to be Canadian. I was only rooting for the Canucks as my bro lives out in Vancouver and my team (The Leafs) haven't made the post season in SEVEN SEASONS!

Oh well, at least I won't be distracted by a Canucks game tonight, which should allow me to focus all of my attention on the.....

P.S. How are your Wings doing, Shawn?

They are in Augusta in. Tournament with players from Vancouver, San Jose and Pittsburgh

Bob Savage · Apr 23, 2012

CECamps":1pmtuppj said:
sah5150":1pmtuppj said:

I never said you were running a bad business, although I could see how you could miss the subtlety of my statements. I meant it is bad business practice to make your customers investors. That is not saying that you are running a bad business overall.

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Understood. But I think that should be left up to the customer to decide, no? It's kind of a case-by-case issue.

As long as the customer is made aware up front of the reality of the situation, I don't see a real problem with it. For those businesses that are collecting deposits to build previous orders that already had deposits collected, there's a fundamental issue and I am fairly certain that if the "buyer" knew their amp being built relied upon deposits from future orders these "businesses" would not be around for long.

I'm not arguing with you by the way because from what I've read you're not doing this, but those who do run this way are not running a business, they're flying by the seat of their pants and putting every new deposit at risk for the customer.

Shawn Lutz · Apr 24, 2012

The fundamentals of business 101 apply any and every business.

No offense but someone who majored in business should know differences between deposit and revenue, just saying. I totally understand the deposit aspect but mot 50%. It sounds like you have a great amp and loyal satisfied customers, and run a respectable business from point of sale, communications and delivery dates more power to you but don't think a deposit is revenue because is is not.

How to deal with small amp builders?

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