How to deal with small amp builders?

[squank]

The estimates you will get from most boutique guitar, amp, pedal, etc. builders are usually wild-assed guesses and in many cases flat out lies that will never be met in my experience. Hell, even an operation like the Charvel Custom Shop is full of shit. I was originally told November 2011 for a guitar I ordered in April 2011 and it is now over a year and it is probably going to be another 2-3 months minimum. If they have no idea, what do you expect from most guys building 20-50 amps a year? It is what it is though and truthfully, based on my experience I fully expected this, so I'm not even caring... 2-3 months from now I will be though...

That said, 12 weeks on a 8 week estimate is a bit early to be freaking, IMO...

If you are done waiting, I would ask nicely for my deposit back since it hasn't been started yet and he is losing nothing by returning it and move on. If he won't return your deposit, if you have his delivery timeframe in writing, tell him you will take him to small claims court to get your money back + lost wags, etc. If that doesn't work, either follow through or chalk it up as a loss and move on.

I've been through this multiple times and in only two cases did the person not ultimately deliver, however in both cases I was able to retrieve my cash, sometimes driving over 100 miles to get it. I feel lucky...

It is one downside of ordering custom stuff from flaky "artistes"... I have found that VERY few boutique guitar, amp, pedal, etc. builders have any business sense whatsoever. Many act as if they are doing you, the paying customer, some sort of favor, and it is so incredibly maddening...

Steve

This.

I know you are antsy for your custom gear, but this is not even a real delay yet in my mind.

 

[jerrydyer]

I can understand if the builder would just say I am having some problems with production at the moment and so on. But to say that I will be working on your amp after I finish off the one I am doing and it should be done really soon, then not contact me at all for a month and I have to ask hey whats up? And then get more run around saying it will be done eary this week but man its now the end of the week and nothing.

I will bite my tongue for and wait a little longer but I don't know for how long.

Par for the course, man... Par for the course...

Steve

You got use a "double liner" there. Like every cheesy tv drama.

 

[rlord1974]

Ok, I can understand that you don't want to name the builder, but can you share with us what model of amp you ordered?...





Sorry about the situation. Remain polite and professional - at least for a few more weeks!

 

[garbagetruckdriver]

As a sideline I import and distribute boutique amps from the USA into Asia. Never had a supplier meet a deadline. Ever.
Supply chain issues, parts shortages, "sorry we're swamped because of NAMM", "one of our guys quit", "the back office girl left and we're sorting out the paperwork", "my cabinet builder sold his business to a larger company and we're caught in their backlog"... etc. etc.

In my day job I work for a US IT company that sells telecoms equipment (routers, firewalls, switches, security solutions) into Asia. Same crap. Largely outsourced manufacturing but with several global supply depots, 2 and 3 tiered distribution channels. Exact same crap.

What irks me is (and why I went into business supplying gear) is that we've lost touch with the ability to communicate - even though we live in a 'communication age'.
Best thing that can happen to you is to have an unhappy customer. Why? Because you can easily convert them into a happy customer with some individual attention, and then you have a new and very vocal advocate. Best marketing you can get. And heck, it ain't hard to look good when the competition behaves the way they do.

Your dollars. Your choice. Remind your builders/suppliers of that very important fact.

 

[glassjaw7]

Dave Woodhouse f'n rocks! Oh yeah, sorry to hear about your situation O.P....

 

[Tonelover]

I ordered a Baron from Dave when the wait was about six months out and he finished pretty much to the week of what was originally estimated. It was a long wait but I was thoroughly impressed by his ability to meet the projected deadline.

 

[Digital Jams]

Yeah 8-12 weeks is nothing for this business, if you decided the un-finished amp is just not for you ask for your money back.

 

[CECamps]

Here's my advice:

Call and ask for some explanation of why the quoted wait time isn't being met. I'd expect any customer of mine to do that.

Some of us small guys are proactive about notifying customers of unexpected delays and providing details so the customer understands. I know I am. But some others are afraid of pissing off the customer and/or having the customer demand a refund...so they may play the hermit crab role. Not saying it's right--cuz it isn't. Just saying that every business owner will approach these situations differently.

My personal opinion is that 3 months wait time is not uncommon in the build-to-order market. So I don't think you have much to be concerned with as far as that goes. But I can totally understand your frustration with a lack of communication. Big time no-no from the standpoint of customer service.

Again, be direct. Be tactful, but be direct. What information do you want to know (rhetorical question)? Ask.

Hope your experience turns out to be positive in the end!

 

[VC4Ever]

Thanks for all the input. To those that PM'd me about who it was I won't say...yet. Hopefully everything works out soon.

 

[JTyson]

12 weeks on an 8 week order?
I would not be upset yet if you really want the amp...
I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John. I hope its worth the wait, he says it will be the most touch-responsive Marshall I've ever played. I have a few others so I'm not pressed for it. This one is not a high gain blower amp, its a different beast altogether.
I'm hoping I dont live to regret it, but at this point, I'm too far in to give up now.....

 

[Anonymous]

I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John.

I don't care if it is the best sounding Marshall eva', then when I'm done playing it, it turns into a supermodel, who blows me, then gets me an In-N-Out combo and a six pack of beer before immediately turning back into the amp, four f'n years for an amp mod is f'n ridiculous and there can be no justification for it.

Nothin' against you for your willingness to wait, bro, but I would never be willing to wait that long for music gear of any kind.

Steve

 

[LP Freak]

12 weeks on an 8 week order?
I would not be upset yet if you really want the amp...
I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John. I hope its worth the wait, he says it will be the most touch-responsive Marshall I've ever played. I have a few others so I'm not pressed for it. This one is not a high gain blower amp, its a different beast altogether.
I'm hoping I dont live to regret it, but at this point, I'm too far in to give up now.....

Four years. I'd tell him to get fucked.

 

[The Hoff]

While I agree that builders should be conservative about their E.T.A.s "just in case," I wouldn't be too upset about a 12 week wait on an 8 week order. And while it would be easy to simply stay in contact with you, that seems not to be the case most of the time. Not trying to say it is okay for these builders to do this, just saying that you shouldn't be worrying too much yet.

I've ordered 4 "small builder" items new so far:
-Surreal: very quick, on time
-Friedman: very quick, on time
-Gary Hines (LP Build quoted 6 months, took 13
-FJA: quoted 4-6 weeks, took just over 3 months

Gary was good about contacting me while Jerry (at FJA) really wasn't. I PM'd him here a few times and e-mailed him, yet I didn't receive a word back. Didn't get an e-mail for 3 months until the one that had my tracking info in it. While I was a little worried, I understood that he is a one man shop and doesn't have much time to respond to messages (although it would have only taken a few seconds to respond to an e-mail). Either way, it showed up and it was worth the wait-I would do business with him again without hesitation. The product you receive from a quality small builder is usually more than worth the wait, hang in there, I'm sure you'll be fine.

If I'm wrong and you get screwed, out that dick

 

[JTyson]

I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John.

I don't care if it is the best sounding Marshall eva', then when I'm done playing it, it turns into a supermodel, who blows me, then gets me an In-N-Out combo and a six pack of beer before immediately turning back into the amp, four f'n years for an amp mod is f'n ridiculous and there can be no justification for it.

Nothin' against you for your willingness to wait, bro, but I would never be willing to wait that long for music gear of any kind.

Steve

I understand completely, I've been thinking about picking it up unfinished for over a year now. My options at this point are to pick up an unfinished project, or to try and wait it out. I have several others, so I'm trying to hang in there.
Thats all I'm saying at this point

 

[Anonymous]

Here's my advice:

Call and ask for some explanation of why the quoted wait time isn't being met. I'd expect any customer of mine to do that.

But...he already did that, man. Read his original post. He is getting the runaround, although as I pointed out, still seems a bit early in the cycle of lies/bullshit to be that upset yet.

Some of us small guys are proactive about notifying customers of unexpected delays and providing details so the customer understands. I know I am. But some others are afraid of pissing off the customer and/or having the customer demand a refund...so they may play the hermit crab role. Not saying it's right--cuz it isn't. Just saying that every business owner will approach these situations differently.

In my considerable experience with small custom guitar, amp, pedal, etc. builders, you stand alone. I have never had one small guy (or large, or medium) EVER call to give me any update of any sort. And honestly, I have to say that if their concern is pissing off the customer, that is news to me, because my experience has been that when I send an email or make a call, when my quoted delivery time has been exceeded by double, I 'm usually met with rude, terse emails or phone calls that make me feel like the person sitting on my hard earned cash is doing me some sort of favor by building me something that is supposed to be their business. The truth is this industry is populated by a large amount of flakes. I'm glad to hear that you are not one of them, but you are extremely rare.

My personal opinion is that 3 months wait time is not uncommon in the build-to-order market. So I don't think you have much to be concerned with as far as that goes. But I can totally understand your frustration with a lack of communication. Big time no-no from the standpoint of customer service.

I have to laugh, because a 3 month wait time for any custom piece I've ever ordered would have been a world record. I'm almost always quoted 3 months, but it ends up being over a year when I finally get what I ordered. I'd say the build-to-market wait time is more like a year +...

I will also say that if a builder just told me, "Look man, to be honest, it is going to be about 14 months for me to get you this." and then I actually got it in 14 months, I would be ecstatic and the builder would'nt have received even 1 email or phone call from me. I just want honesty, which I find to be sorely lacking...

Just my experience... I'm sure others will chime in with others...

Steve

 

[guitarmike]

I agree they all lack in communication skills although it is probably due to being overloaded with work more than a lack of wanting to keep you up to date. Unless the custom amp builder builds everything himself and has every component well stocked in his shop, and has a bunch of prebuilt amps ready to go, he is at the mercy of his suppliers. For example, most of the builders outsource their cabinets. Most cabinet makers are small shops and they do not have the money to stock everything all the time either. Suppose the cabinet maker builds 10 cabinets per week on average and has 5 customers plus internet sales. If he gets 15 orders for cabs in one week he just fell a few weeks behind. That just delayed your amp.

Remember, most of these guys and their suppliers are not wealthy. They cannot afford to keep even modest stock piles of parts, they ask for deposits so they can buy the parts to build your amp. Many of these guys work day jobs and only dream of being able to be self sufficient building and selling amps.

If I was in the position of the VC4Ever I would call the builder and ask for a communication plan. I doubt the builder wants anything but to deliver the amp and make VC4Ever a happy customer. If VC4Ever feels the builder is not trustworthy, I would ask for a refund. if you can't trust him now, it will only get worse.

 

[CECamps]

But...he already did that, man. Read his original post. He is getting the runaround, although as I pointed out, still seems a bit early in the cycle of lies/bullshit to be that upset yet.

Did he call? Or did he just send an email?

My point was pick up the phone and call. It's easy to avoid emails, or to respond with ambiguity. One can tell a lot from a person's voice over the phone though.

In my considerable experience with small custom guitar, amp, pedal, etc. builders, you stand alone. I have never had one small guy (or large, or medium) EVER call to give me any update of any sort. And honestly, I have to say that if their concern is pissing off the customer, that is news to me, because my experience has been that when I send an email or make a call, when my quoted delivery time has been exceeded by double, I 'm usually met with rude, terse emails or phone calls that make me feel like the person sitting on my hard earned cash is doing me some sort of favor by building me something that is supposed to be their business. The truth is this industry is populated by a large amount of flakes. I'm glad to hear that you are not one of them, but you are extremely rare.

Wow, sorry to hear you've had so many sour experiences. That sucks.

I definitely don't stand alone though. There are other folks out there that understand the customer comes first. I mean, I know there are countless flakes and fly-by-nights. Amp building and running a business are mutually exclusive skill sets and a lot of people have to learn that the hard way. But some people do it right, it's just that you may not have done business with them yet.

I have to laugh, because a 3 month wait time for any custom piece I've ever ordered would have been a world record. I'm almost always quoted 3 months, but it ends up being over a year when I finally get what I ordered. I'd say the build-to-market wait time is more like a year +...

That's crazy. People must be sitting on their hands.

I will also say that if a builder just told me, "Look man, to be honest, it is going to be about 14 months for me to get you this." and then I actually got it in 14 months, I would be ecstatic and the builder would'nt have received even 1 email or phone call from me. I just want honesty, which I find to be sorely lacking...

Just my experience... I'm sure others will chime in with others...

Steve

Absolutely. Honesty is paramount to trust. I take it upon myself to call all of my customers at least once during the production of their amps and touch base, give updates, projections, etc. with a real-time conversation. This is outside of the regular email updates I send which usually include pictures above and beyond info. Customer service takes up a lot of time. But I can't imagine why any small business owner wouldn't understand that customer service is critical to the survival of their business. That has always perplexed me.

And I'm never afraid to quote long. Not sure why anyone is. Usually, explaining why the lead time exists as it does is sufficient for the customer. A recent example for me was on an amp someone ordered back in early November of last year. I gave them an estimated ship date of mid March this year without hesitating. It would have been a pipe dream to think it could have been delivered earlier given all the variables involved in the production. At any rate, when I explained why, the customer had no issues with it at all. Never got asked, "are we there yet?"

 

[steve_k]

If building amps is your day job, I fail to see how it can take 6 months to deliver an amp. Sorry......

If however, it is a spare time hobby or money-making venture, then it makes sense and I have a lot of time for a few people.

If said builder must wait on a customer order and deposit to finance the build and go buy inventory for each order, then it becomes that pesky supplier problem. Prepare for the excuses about the chassis guy had a death in the family, or the knob supplier's wife ran out with the knob stash. Use your imagination here.

It's all bullshit to the nth degree. I have dealt with the good, the bad and the ugly and adjust expectations based on the bullshit factor associated with said builder. It would be cool to hear one say that I am not taking any new orders right now.

 

[alan67]

I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John.

I don't care if it is the best sounding Marshall eva', then when I'm done playing it, it turns into a supermodel, who blows me, then gets me an In-N-Out combo and a six pack of beer before immediately turning back into the amp, four f'n years for an amp mod is f'n ridiculous and there can be no justification for it.

Nothin' against you for your willingness to wait, bro, but I would never be willing to wait that long for music gear of any kind.

Steve

This x 1000

 

[Rushtallica]

I've been waiting on a Landgraff mod for almost 4 years I'm trying to be patient, but its tough. It seems 3-5 years is not unusual for John.

I don't care if it is the best sounding Marshall eva', then when I'm done playing it, it turns into a supermodel, who blows me, then gets me an In-N-Out combo and a six pack of beer before immediately turning back into the amp, four f'n years for an amp mod is f'n ridiculous and there can be no justification for it.

Nothin' against you for your willingness to wait, bro, but I would never be willing to wait that long for music gear of any kind.

Steve

Yeah, F that noise. And if a fair sum of money was put down to be waiting that long, I'd have demanded it back a long, long time ago and would be raising hell if I didn't get it.