Schenker's place in the guitar god hierarchy
- Thread starter Kapo_Polenton
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they are no FoghatJack Luminous
Well-known member
I agree Schenker has some kind of special accuracy within his picking technic and phrasing (when he's not drunk). I hear it that way. But still I don't really appreciate his solos. Feels kinda boring to my ears. For example, I much prefer Andy LaRoque (more recent but kinda classic in a way).
jabps
Well-known member
Lol. Lord.
VH debuted in 78, 44 years later there is a whole cottage amp industry trying to replicate his sound. Are amp manufacturers trying to cop Jimi, no. I mean in the big scheme of things, his tone still chased daily. Nobody is chasing Jimi.
For a good 20 years after the VH debut, the modded strat started by EVH nearly put Gibson out of business. To the point they even started offering a hot rod strat lol. Slash and grunge saved their ass. Did Jimi have that affect on guitar manufacturers. no.
Red, black, white stripes...everyone on the planet knows what that is. Did Jimi have a signature item like this, no.
Floyd Rose, pickup manufacturers, pedal makers, Peavey, Ernie Ball all have designed and sold product because of EVH, not to mention his own EVH amp and product line now. Did Jimi have that, no.
None of the above is opinion, that's fact. Not liking Ed's playing is one thing, that's opinion but I literally cannot see how anyone would downplay his influence just because you might not like his playing.
Btw / I love Jimi, I understand his impact and why I always list him as 1A but I also always have EVH as 1B.
CarlF
Well-known member
55 years later people are still trying to figure out what Jimi did and his tones. Are manufacturers trying to cop Jimi? Are you kidding? The Fuzz pedals, Univibes, wahs. Marshall made a few takes on Jimi's stacks and currently PRS reverse engineered one on Jimi's Marshalls.
Was Jimi an endorsement whore wanting his name on every piece of gear? No.
EVH did NOTHING musically of note outside of VH. He spent his career playing the same tunes. He's no Jimi, Beck, Clapton. Not at all. Just a keg-party player who caught a break. I see his place in history, but it's not at the top.
jabps
Well-known member
Those products were not created for Jimi, sure he was a notable user and obviously had guys fine tune those for him but they weren't designed specifically for him. Sorry Marshall reissuing an amp that Jimi used which was readily available at that time is far different than whole manufacturers trying to reverse engineer to get Ed's tone or people that have analyzed his tone ad nauseum for decades. Amps, guitars, pickups, pedals have been designed by Ed for not only his use but mass production, far different than being an endorsement whore ala someone like Lynch. And what did Jimi do outside of Jimi, that's a weird way of looking at things lol. As if that is supposed to somehow validate your ability. But that said, Ed did play on one of the biggest selling singles of all time outside of VH. You know it doesn't matter if I like Jimi or not I will always give him the respect he deserves as I fully understand his impact, too bad you can't do the same for Ed. Funniest thing about this is Ed's not even in my top 5 favorite guitar players, not even sure he makes my top 10 if I sit down and think about it but I understand his impact without question as I can separate favoritism from reality. But all good man.
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Noel's Destroyer
New member
I heard Schenker for the first time about 2 years before I heard Van Halen. "Love to Love" IIRC. I thought his playing was utterly beautiful, and became an instant fan. Oddly, I never saw UFO. But I've seen MSG several times. Last time was the 2018 tour at a medium sized club here in Seattle. Utterly amazing! Apparently Ted McKenna died a few months later.
Interesting sidebar: If you ever plug into a 2205 or 2210, if you turn the treble down to almost off, you can get that tone (sans cocked wah of course). I don't need one of them, but every time I play through one, I seriously think about it.
Interesting sidebar: If you ever plug into a 2205 or 2210, if you turn the treble down to almost off, you can get that tone (sans cocked wah of course). I don't need one of them, but every time I play through one, I seriously think about it.
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Noel's Destroyer
New member
CarlF, I get your point. But I do remember April '78 quite well. It marked a shift in Rock guitar playing. A friend of mine basically grabbed me, and took me over to his house and made me sit down and listen to VH1. (My friend John was a very tough brawler kinda guy you didn't argue with.) Anyway, I was shocked, and immediately went out and bought it, and listened intently for months. I'm sure tens of thousands of kids like me did the same. So, while that is a valid point, Eddie's style and idiosyncrasies did become part of the rock guitar lexicon. And that is significant. Not to mention his tone. I saw VH only once: at a Day on the Green at the Oakland Coliseum in '78. I went down front so I could see up close. I was not disappointed. And from '84 up till today, my main guitar is a '76 Destroyer with a Floyd routed in by Gary Brawer. Though I've been influenced by numerous guitarists, that Destroyer is staying with me for good.
Jack Luminous
Well-known member
Yngwie Malmsteen created his own sub-genre of metal and spawned an entire army of clones playing neo-classical shred. That is great level of power ! 
mentoneman
Well-known member
he was offering private lessons out of a trade publication in LA during the weird years. i remember seeing the ad—-think it was $100/half hour—-and was tempted because SCHENKER but the stories circulating at the time made me pass.
Racerxrated
Well-known member
That’s how I set most of my Marshalls; treble off or almost and use presence for highs. My 1988 2205, has that mid that is just on a different plane than my other Marshalls. Which is why Schenker uses them. No need for the wah as much
rstites
Well-known member
I will say that one huge thing VH had going for them on that very first album was an amazingly new/fresh sound from the entire album. There's some serious magic-in-a-bottle to the overall sound of that. Song-for-song, I'm not sure it's really anything beyond many of the other late-70's hard rock albums out there, but it definitely has an open, live, airy sound to it that those others, at least the lower budget band just couldn't capture.
Personally, I love it all. I'm not willing to play favorites between them, but no doubt VH had the better pop success and had an overall larger impact due to album sales. Some of that is the sound, some is uniqueness, and some of it really is just timing. It hit at the right time that people were out looking for something new and went big due to that.
braintheory
Well-known member
Very well said! I agree, I wasn’t alive at the time, but seems to me like the main things going for them was the sound, which was new and refreshing and EVH’s techniques since there weren’t as many technical players back then. The point you made that I totally agree with is that if we strip things down to just their musical content (like melody, riffs, harmony, rhythm) I really don’t hear anything that great or original for that matter. I think it was the novel sound and technique that did it for people and timing like you said. Seems that if one has an overall sound that’s great and original it can be enough even if the music itself isn’t that good. I personally pay most attention to the music itself. I’d rather listen to a crappy 8-bit quality version of top notch music (like Bach as one of many examples) over the best tone ever with vapid musical content or even if the music is 8/10 good
Yngwie was the same imo. Technique and glorious tone (showed me that you can get a shred tone with a strat that’s as good as it gets), but imo his actual musical content was horrible and often times very predictable. He had though also amazing feel and vibrato. I get why he was so influential, but it’s just shame he couldn’t create better musical ideas because almost everything was outstanding
FormerlyKnownAsMaddnotez
Active member
Yup, VH tripled UFO sales basically.
I'm too young to say who stands where but it's all perception to say who is better. Many people may be better but don't get the credit. Many people also get the credit when they shouldn't. (Stealing or copying) but I guess it all comes down to fame and raw numbers in this industry.
mentoneman
Well-known member
hendrix heavily inspired uli/blackmore/clapton/beck/page> schenker/vh/moore> rhoads/lynch/yngwie/ej/gales/satch/vai/gilbert
…etc…
so i get where Carl is coming from as i too love hendrix
but personally holdsworth and lane and gambale are a different category in my mind as a technically superior league of player whose solos i would never dare imagine being able to learn and reproduce. super inspiring as a guitar player to know what’s possible but i wouldn’t catch myself walking out the door whistilng one of their tunes!
“hey kids gather round the campfire so we can sing holdsworth’s “White Line” together!” said no one ever.
yet the fact that we all know their names means they each did something cool for guitar music and i appreciate each for their unique contributions!
…etc…
so i get where Carl is coming from as i too love hendrix
but personally holdsworth and lane and gambale are a different category in my mind as a technically superior league of player whose solos i would never dare imagine being able to learn and reproduce. super inspiring as a guitar player to know what’s possible but i wouldn’t catch myself walking out the door whistilng one of their tunes!
“hey kids gather round the campfire so we can sing holdsworth’s “White Line” together!” said no one ever.
yet the fact that we all know their names means they each did something cool for guitar music and i appreciate each for their unique contributions!
braintheory
Well-known member
Well said. It’s very sad that music is one of the few fields where the ones who deliver higher quality are often not as successful as others with less, but better marketing or other various gimmicks to beat them
rstites
Well-known member
I would say that there were some tremendous technical players around. EVH gets a lot of credit because he went big, so he's a household name. To his credit, I've always felt his rhythm work is fairly unique - really, moreso than his solos. It's why VH is more pop than hard rock or metal, and part of why it has such wide appeal. (Really, DLR as a front man helped propel the whole thing up more than any guitar wizardry.) Musically, a lot of EVH's things seem to be tricks, I suppose, but not that deep musically. I'm not knocking them, but it's almost as much the show of him doing those tricks as anything they're doing from a musical perspective. Regardless, it caught the general publics ear and propelled them to stardom.
There are a lot of other bands out there at the time that were massively influential on the guitar and metal world that never had the success directly, but definitely were well known by the players. UFO and Schenker is absolutely there. It's like the fact that Rainbow never had a platinum alum in the era, but everyone in the metal crowd (players anyway) had the albums. UFO was the same. Or someone like Rush who had a bit more commercial success, but still weren't really a household name. Those bands were the real foundation of the up-and-coming bands/players, so had influence vastly superior to their actual album sales. (Want to go extreme: look at the various NWoBHM that never even had an album, but lots of people had a take of their one or two songs, even if it was 4th generation tape.)
FormerlyKnownAsMaddnotez
Active member
Yes DLR was/is an incredible showman as everyone knows. Also to me at least, I had never heard anyone doing those super high pitched squeals before so it was something new there as well perhaps.
mentoneman
Well-known member
t
i’ve taken accordion, piano, trombone, and guitar lessons in my life as well as high school band and entry level college theory classes and was blessed to play live over 20 years semi-professionally with world class musicians of the highest order, but never had the desire to discipline myself enough to become an exclusively dedicated professional musician. i knew what it took and i didn’t have “it”.
took the first rising force album into my college intro to classical music theory class for my professor to critique. he said technically the guy had chops and it was cool to hear rock guitar in that context but generally everything stuck to one key/mode and came across as a guy who appreciated classical music and wanted to sound like a classical musician by borrowing from that idiom, without the depth of understanding in what it takes to be a classically trained musician.
i’ve taken accordion, piano, trombone, and guitar lessons in my life as well as high school band and entry level college theory classes and was blessed to play live over 20 years semi-professionally with world class musicians of the highest order, but never had the desire to discipline myself enough to become an exclusively dedicated professional musician. i knew what it took and i didn’t have “it”.
rstites
Well-known member
I never really got that much in Malmsteen. I have a lot of classical music around and love it, but my appreciation of it in rock format pretty much stops at Blackmore, et al. I love pulling some things in that are out of that arena, but it tends to be limited in the end. (A bit like how I don't really get into most of the progressive rock that much. It's impressive, but too brainy for me. I appreciate it, but don't really want to listen to most of it.)
I still would have sold my soul to be a professional musician in my own band, but I'd have remained a metal, musical hack most likely. Hell, I can't even properly read music!
braintheory
Well-known member
Exactly, agreed! Plenty of technical players that were even better, but forgotten somehow. Like you said his rhythm really was excellent, but honestly his leads to me sounded obnoxious and didn’t really tell me anything musically. They generally sounded like noodly gobbly gook to me and sadly so many players later copied that same crap (confirmation of how hugely influential he was, but in a bad way here). It always annoys me when I hear clips of guys playing like that and then guys will comment “killer playing”. Really? That’s what killer playing sounds like? Like you said no depth musically to that lead work, but guys seem to like it I guess
I gotta admit though many riffs and leads I loved would not have existed without EVH. For example that main riff in round and round is imo one of the best riffs ever written in any form of rock. It’s to me like a much better version of the riffs EVH often wrote, but clear influence, undeniable
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