The Second Amendment and David Hogg

[CrazyNutz]

It is the conclusion I draw. You aren't presenting a coherent argument because you can't show that foreknowledge somehow negates your own free will which you experience every minute of the day.

So you're telling me if a creator knows exactly what his creation will do before hand, the creation still has free will?

Let's go back to the robot analogy.

I create the robot, I know 100% of what the robot will do. Does my robot have free will, is it unpredictable?

 

[CrazyNutz]

I can choose to curse you out or bless you right now. God knows which one I will choose but he doesn't force me to do either.

If he knows, then it was pre determined.

You're basically making an argument that says a murderer is just carrying out what God wanted him to do.

God knew full well what the murderer would do ahead of time, yet he created him anyway.

The devil made me do it nonsense. If I am playing mental gymnastics then you are swinging on the monkey bars next to me.

I never mentioned the devil creating anyone with full knowledge of what they would do.

 

[CrazyNutz]

@VonBonfire

BTW If you don't want to talk about this, that is fine. Don't feel obligated. I really don't want to offend anyone. I only speak of religious stuff when someone brings it up, or fires shots with it.

That being said I totally don't mind discussing it. But again I really don't want to offend anyone's belief.

 

[Baked Bean]

The phrase "have your cake and eat it too" applies to a lot of arguments made by Christians.

God is all-knowing. God created the universe. He created that whole thing and then decided to really focus on this one minuscule spec of dust that was a by-product of that huge universe thing he just made. So he goes all in on this spec and creates air, water, land, animals, and man. Then he spends his first few millennia teaching his new creations his gospel.

But, oops, he messed it all up. Got things terribly wrong. His creation wasn't perfect - meaning he wasn't perfect.
There wasn't a huge etch-a-sketch he could just shake up to start over so he just drowned all the sinners, as well as all the innocent children and animals - so he could start all over again. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water!

Am I suppose to believe that he got everything right the second try?
Nope. He's a proven failure.

 

[VonBonfire]

God knew full well what the murderer would do ahead of time, yet he created him anyway.

He didn't make anyone murder anyone. The murderer chose to commit that act. Cain is the first murderer. He beat Abel with a rock because he was jealous God received Abel's sacrifice but not his.. Is God also guilty because he made the rock? You're being obtuse. Tomorrow you can wake up and live as a saint or you can live as a lecher. It's free will and it can co-exist with an all knowing God.

If he knows, then it was pre determined.

You are wrongly equating the two things when they are separate. Having knowledge of an outcome does not mean the person is without a choice. If you can't see that, then we are possibly reaching an impasse. And no worries, it's fine to discuss, there are no hard feelings or anything like that. Thanks.

 

[CrazyNutz]

He didn't make anyone murder anyone. The murderer chose to commit that act. Cain is the first murderer. He beat Abel with a rock because he was jealous God received Abel's sacrifice but not his.. Is God also guilty because he made the rock? You're being obtuse. Tomorrow you can wake up and live as a saint or you can live as a lecher. It's free will and it can co-exist with an all knowing God.
think

Would you create a being that you 100% know will kill someone?

Would you create a world full of beings that you 100% know will anger you, or make you jealous?
And then kill them all, knowing that you would kill them before you even created them?

You are wrongly equating the two things when they are separate. Having knowledge of an outcome does not mean the person is without a choice. If you can't see that, then we are possibly reaching an impasse. And no worries, it's fine to discuss, there are no hard feelings or anything like that. Thanks.

Seriously think about that for a second. You 100% know what a being will do before you create it. This said being is not yet in existence to even make any choices yet. But you know what it will do. This is beyond a shadow of a doubt predetermination of the creator.

A creation cannot make choices before it is created, so if the knowledge of the choices exist precreation, those choices must be the choices of the creator.

 

[VonBonfire]

Would you create a being that you 100% know will kill someone?

That would mean that I created all of those beings and in dong so, can restore life to the being whose life was stolen.

Would you create a world full of beings that you 100% know will anger you, or make you jealous?

But I also know 100% that many of those beings would love and bring honor, glory, and worship to me. The ones that didn't would later be forced to so fall in line so I don't see the problem.

And then kill them all, knowing that you would kill them before you even created them?

If the creation had spun out of control, yeah, I'd wipe the slate clean.

Seriously think about that for a second. You 100% know what a being will do before you create it. This said being is not yet in existence to even make any choices yet. But you know what it will do. This is beyond a shadow of a doubt predetermination of the creator.

Knowing the outcome is not pre-determining the outcome though. What you are suggesting leads to other falsehoods. There is no right or wrong in the theoretical world you created because any and every action is ascribed to God's responsibility, and not the responsibility of the created being who carried out those actions, willingly. The whole basis of law and morals contradicts the claim you make.

A man steals your guitar. God made the man. God stole the guitar because he created the man and knew he would steal the guitar. Very flawed logic.

 

[Ben Waylin]

So you're telling me if a creator knows exactly what his creation will do before hand, the creation still has free will?

From our point of view, yes.

 

[CrazyNutz]

That would mean that I created all of those beings and in dong so, can restore life to the being whose life was stolen.

People don't come back to life after being killed, and you cannot restore a lost loved one to the family, and friends.

But I also know 100% that many of those beings would love and bring honor, glory, and worship to me. The ones that didn't would later be forced to so fall in line so I don't see the problem.

I'm still speaking of the flood where everyone was killed even innocent children, except the boaters.

If the creation had spun out of control, yeah, I'd wipe the slate clean.

As the omnipotent creator you knew the creation would spin out of control ahead of the creation. No need to even create it if you new you would kill it. Flawed logic

Knowing the outcome is not pre-determining the outcome though. What you are suggesting leads to other falsehoods. There is no right or wrong in the theoretical world you created because any and every action is ascribed to God's responsibility, and not the responsibility of the created being who carried out those actions, willingly. The whole basis of law and morals contradicts the claim you make.

Knowing the outcome before even creating the being is 100% predetermination. The being did not exist to even fathom making a choice, but the choice was already known. That choice could only have been made by the creator since the being did not exist yet.

A man steals your guitar. God made the man. God stole the guitar because he created the man and knew he would steal the guitar. Very flawed logic.

Can the man make the choice to not steal the guitar after god knows he will?

 

[Ben Waylin]

I'm still speaking of the flood where everyone was killed even innocent children, except the boaters.

Not exactly..

There's a lot more going on there than I think you are aware of.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Not exactly..

There's a lot more going on there than I think you are aware of.

Ok two dinosaurs of each kind fit on the boat, and stuff

 

[Ben Waylin]

Ok two dinosaurs of each kind fit on the boat, and stuff

Thank you for making my point for me.

 

[VonBonfire]

Can the man make the choice to not steal the guitar after god knows he will?

God knowing whether he will steal it or not has no effect on the individual's personal decision to steal the guitar. God didn't force him to steal anything. The persona made a conscious decision to steal the guitar, driven by greed and covetousness which is also forbidden in scripture. So God caused him to violate God's own commands? Ludicrous.

 

[Stripped Rights]

But I (god) also know 100% that many of those beings would love and bring honor, glory, and worship to me. The ones that didn't would later be forced to so fall in line so I don't see the problem.

So is God some kind of ego maniac or something? Just created a bunch of beings to receive praise and if they don't kiss his behind they'll be forced to? Sounds weird.

Was he just some dude that didn't get the respect he felt he deserved in daily life from beings just like him so he made an ant farm or computer simulation loaded with people designed to boost his ego? Being serious here. I asked something similar in my creationism thread.

Edit How TF did a 2A thread turn into some philosophical shit?

 

[VonBonfire]

Just created a bunch of beings to receive praise and if they don't kiss his behind they'll be forced to?

God is love. He loves you and hopes you love him in return. Your knee will bow one day, it is written.

Was he just some dude that didn't get the respect he felt he deserved in daily life from beings just like him so he made an ant farm or computer simulation loaded with people designed to boost his ego?

If that were the case he would've made un-thinking droids to serve him. Instead he gave you the gift of life and the choice who you will serve.

You, much like Crazy Nutz, seem dissatisfied that the God of the bible isn't created in the image you would like to see him as. You suggest he is egotistical, yet it is you who would like God to meet your personal moral code. So who is egotistical?

 

[CrazyNutz]

God knowing whether he will steal it or not has no effect on the individual's personal decision to steal the guitar. God didn't force him to steal anything. The persona made a conscious decision to steal the guitar, driven by greed and covetousness which is also forbidden in scripture. So God caused him to violate God's own commands? Ludicrous.

I'm just asking logical questions. I'm not accusing god of stealing the guitar, bro.

So again, can the man make the choice to not steal the guitar after God knows he will steal the guitar?

 

[Baked Bean]

Not exactly..

There's a lot more going on there than I think you are aware of.

Stop trying to bullshit everyone that you are a Christian.

 

[Picasso]

“Baked Bean” the newest member who has been “lurking” prior to joining has a giant David Hogg doll.

 

[Ben Waylin]

Stop trying to bullshit everyone that you are a Christian.

Bro, are you retarded or what ?

 

[Baked Bean]

Bro, are you retarded or what?

Bro, are you a fucking hypocritical fake Christian asshole piece of shit, or what?