The Second Amendment and David Hogg

[CrazyNutz]

Kind of twisted isn't it!

Deeply.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

In the bible, they deserved it. Your personal moral judgments notwithstanding.

And your moral judgement on the killings in the bible is that they deserved it. See how that works?

"Now go and attack the Amalekites and completely destroy everything they have. Do not spare them. Kill men and women, infants and nursing babies, oxen and sheep, camels and donkeys.” - 1 Samuel 15:3

I thought God was "pro life". Hmmmm. Let's look into that...

Numbers 5:11-31 - The Test for an Unfaithful Wife​

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

Did the child who died due to its mother's sin in verse 27 deserve to die?

 

[JohnnyGtar]

That's a fucking loophole clause to do whatever really, and the people that wrote it knew it

So let some freak kill my grandkids at school? That is what the founders had in mind when they wrote "promote the general welfare"?

 

[VonBonfire]

I'm using children because they are innocent. You say these people deserved to die. Ok maybe the argument could be made that the adults deserved it. BUT THE ARGUMENT CANNOT BE MADE THAT THE CHILDREN DID.

Also God is ALL KNOWING right?

I'm saying so what? You say they are innocent. Perhaps the Lord was removing them from contemptible parents who would make them evil. If he is the author of life then he can take and give. if he is just life is restored, so where is the crime? You are judging from your limited knowledge of that time. God has full knowledge and assures his scales are just.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Sorry Johnny. It's already been ruled by the Supreme Court. Cops have no obligation to protect you. NONE. Warren vs District of Columbia, Deshaney vs Winnebago county department of social services etc etc

And those decisions, just like the Dredd Scott decision, are wrong.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Kind of twisted isn't it!

Very.

 

[VonBonfire]

And your moral judgement on the killings in the bible is that they deserved it. See how that works?

No, that's just what scripture is saying. In the flood incident the world was full of violence and was corrupt. Men only planned evil all day long. So they were destroyed. Pretty straight forward.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Ahh, but Crazynutz, god can see into the future and tell they were going to do bad things, therefore he got'em first, minority report style. And children are born with a sin nature anyways, so there's that!

"minority report style". LMAO That's perfect. Your post won the internet today.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

I typically don’t get in to gun discussions but I have a question about licensing and permits;
Are there different levels of a license in order to own different types of guns? Like once you get a permit, can you just go right in and buy a little pistol and a ar-15?

 

[JohnnyGtar]

No, that's just what scripture is saying. In the flood incident the world was full of violence and was corrupt. Men only planned evil all day long. So they were destroyed. Pretty straight forward.

And it's your moral judgment that the bible is trustworthy.

Men only planned evil all day long. So they were destroyed. Pretty straight forward.

Men are adults. Why were the children drowned?

 

[VonBonfire]

I typically don’t get in to gun discussions but I have a question about licensing and permits;
Are there different levels of a license in order to own different types of guns? Like once you get a permit, can you just go right in and buy a little pistol and a ar-15?

Check your state and local laws. They are more stringent in your state. Otherwise if you were in a normal state you'd go fill out a form, they'd NICS check you to see if you were a prohibited person, and if you weren't you could buy pretty much anything you want short of machine guns, sawed off shotguns, suppressed weapons, and ordnance.

 

[VonBonfire]

God has full knowledge, so he created these parents knowing they would be contemptible. He created them to murder them, and their children.
If you say he didn't know before hand, then he's not omnipotent.

Do you think God needed to murder these people, and children by drowning? Or could the all powerful God have been more humane?
Like just snapped fingers, and they fall lifeless?

Do you think the innocent children (not yet corrupted by the parents) that obviously suffered a horrendous death, did they go to heaven?

Yes but you have free will as did they. People choose their pathways and the two pathways are the right hand path, good or the left hand path, evil. You are presented with these choices daily. You sound like legal counsel who makes excuses for a criminal who is facing execution. The scripture says the earth was full of violence and that men plotted evil constantly. His own chosen people also did not fare well when they defied the Lord after leaving Egypt. The ground swallowed them up. He IS a jealous God. Fear of him is wisdom. That biblical. So even if you criticisms are fair you are like someone criticizing the boss. The boss doesn't have to care if you think he's wrong, you aren't the one running the business.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Check your state and local laws. They are more stringent in your state. Otherwise if you were in a normal state you'd go fill out a form, they'd NICS check you to see if you were a prohibited person, and if you weren't you could buy pretty much anything you want short of machine guns, sawed off shotguns, suppressed weapons, and ordnance.

In Texas no.

Only things that would require extra permitting/licensing would be full auto, and some attachments. Stuff like that.

AR-15's are not full auto, so they are treated like a pistol yes

That’s pretty wild to me. There are various classes of licenses for driving different vehicles, but not owning guns?
It seems like there would be a lot less of a stigma against guns if they were harder to get than say, a forklift operator license.

Guns are clearly not going to go away, but they will continue to get more sophisticated. they just seem so unregulated

 

[VonBonfire]

BTW the gun range I go to, they regularly bring by a full auto AR (or M16, or M4), and a full auto AK, fun as shit. But expensive to shoot

I got tired of paying range fees in the city so I bought a property in the country big enough to shoot. Mostly pistols....

 

[VonBonfire]

That’s pretty wild to me. There are various classes of licenses for driving different vehicles, but not owning guns?
It seems like there would be a lot less of a stigma against guns if they were harder to get than say, a forklift operator license.

Guns are clearly not going to go away, but they will continue to get more sophisticated. they just seem so unregulated

Actually guns are like amps. Most of the best ones were made before 1970 and most of the basic design of a modern sporting rifle was completed by the 50's. Just my opinion.

No gun owner cares whether there is stigma against them. It's not uncommon here to have a loaded rifle in your truck at hand. It's a fundamental right. that should be granted to every American. I feel the same way about felons getting their voting rights back after they served the time. They should also get their gun rightst back if they serve their time.

Any number of people shoot every sunday afternoon out here after church. Sometimes it's a few different people at the same time. I have some steel targets I need to set up.

 

[CrazyNutz]

I got tired of paying range fees in the city so I bought a property in the country big enough to shoot. Mostly pistols....

Yeah, I hear ya. My brother lives out of the city limits, he has a range on his property we shoot at.

 

[VonBonfire]

Yeah, I hear ya. My brother lives out of the city limits, he has a range on his property we shoot at.

Outdoor range is the only way to go IMO. And steel is so much more fun than paper.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Actually guns are like amps. Most of the best ones were made before 1970 and most of the basic design of a modern sporting rifle was completed by the 50's. Just my opinion.

No gun owner cares whether there is stigma against them. It's not uncommon here to have a loaded rifle in your truck at hand. It's a fundamental right. that should be granted to every American. I feel the same way about felons getting their voting rights back after they served the time. They should also get their gun rightst back if they serve their time.

Any number of people shoot every sunday afternoon out here after church. Sometimes it's a few different people at the same time. I have some steel targets I need to set up.

I think the stigma is important because it’s what keeps both sides from ever compromising and coming up with a way to control something that needs to be controlled.
I love target shooting so I get why people own guns. And I’ve also lived in some absolute shitholes so I understand why some people would want to own a gun for protection.
But I think there is a wide gap between the right to protect yourself and wanting to blow something apart from 100 yards away. That’s the disconnect that people can’t seem to compromise on.

People think I’m weird for not being bothered by a few hours of drag queens in school, but my daughter has been doing active shooter drills a few times a year since she was 4. Drag queens are the last thing I’m worried about my daughter being exposed to ya know?

It’s difficult to discuss guns because any resistance is usually seen as wanting to ban them. I don’t think a ban will solve anything, but I do think some forethought has to be put in to what people can and cannot own, and what the process is to own them

 

[VonBonfire]

I think the stigma is important because it’s what keeps both sides from ever compromising and coming up with a way to control something that needs to be controlled.
I love target shooting so I get why people own guns. And I’ve also lived in some absolute shitholes so I understand why some people would want to own a gun for protection.
But I think there is a wide gap between the right to protect yourself and wanting to blow something apart from 100 yards away. That’s the disconnect that people can’t seem to compromise on.

People think I’m weird for not being bothered by a few hours of drag queens in school, but my daughter has been doing active shooter drills a few times a year since she was 4. Drag queens are the last thing I’m worried about my daughter being exposed to ya know?

It’s difficult to discuss guns because any resistance is usually seen as wanting to ban them. I don’t think a ban will solve anything, but I do think some forethought has to be put in to what people can and cannot own, and what the process is to own them

Thanks for a pleasant reply.

The stigma is localized, so maybe it makes a difference in some areas. In southern, and rural places in general, there is not any stigma. In Austin sometimes people have swords, machetes, and AR-15's on their backs.

I own guns like I own wrenches. They are tools meant to serve a purpose. Hunting, defense, and of course occasional enjoyment.

I don't want my kids exposed to drag queens or active shooter drills. Fortunately my kids are done with school. I would've never done public education but my wife wanted them to have a "normal" life yeah ok. Neither active shooter drills or drag queens is normal to me. An active shooter drill to me is like run and gun where you are on the move shooting multiple targets for fun and competiton, not avoiding getting shot.

I don't believe in any real restrictions on guns I guess. People reject a creator and so life is cheap and meaningless to them and people's lives are therefore worthless because they are not created in God's image so I guess maybe it's easier to pull the trigger with that mindset. Only prayer and society turning back towards Christ is really going to change it. Laws will just be a band-aid that negatively affect too many people who have nothing to do with criminal acts.

 

[VonBonfire]

Ok, take a minute, and think about this. How can God be ALL KNOWING, and you still have free will?

I know my dog will take the doggie biscuit, but he doesn't have to if he's not hungry. It doesn't mean I have some sort of control over the dog. Add to that people being creatures of habit just the same as the dog. The whole point of Torah is that people are unfaithful to the Lord, yet he is faithful to his promises.

If God has prior knowledge, your path was already charted my friend.

No the sun shined, I woke up, and went about doing the things I wanted to to do. I chose. As did you.

Nope, back to the children. The children are innocent, they would not be facing execution.

Innocent according to your limited perception. Perhaps their very human genome had been corrupted? Ever considered they were no longer fully human? You're playing the role of prosecuting attorney but all your evidence is hearsay and circumstantial.

Also how can God be jealous? He had full knowledge of what everyone would do before making the decision to create them.

God loves you and desires that you love him back, willingly and of your own accord. He knows what path you will ultimately take but he does not force you to tread it.