A Hero Of our Time

[Findthetone1]

I paid them well. Very well as a matter of fact. They left smiling and I saw them punching each other in the shoulder over 'the score'.

I paid them what the job was worth in my estimation. For 30 minutes hard work, I gave each guy $40 and gave the guy driving the car $10 for gas.

I got my trailer loaded up for under $100 and they got paid $80/hr. Plus a small 'benefit' if you really want to get into the weeds. That's what the job was worth to me.

You should invite them to come live with you as well.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

You should invite them to come live with you as well.

I'd have them as neighbors any time.

 

[Findthetone1]

I'd have them as neighbors any time.

Of course you would. You'd love cheap labor at your disposal.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

Of course you would. You'd love cheap labor at your disposal.

I like good people. I'd never live next to you for that exact reason.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

So rather than hiring a moving company and paying them a living wage, you decided to break the law for your own personal gain?
That's like a meme come to life. Wow.

I did hire a moving company. You Haul. And I hired private contractors at more than a living wage.

Wow is right.

EDIT: Hey, I'd hate to see you hurt yourself trying to bend yourself into a pretzel finding ways to turn this into something you can criticize.

Take it easy bud. Strains take a long time to heal.

 

[Findthetone1]

I like good people. I'd never live next to you for that exact reason.

And here I was thinking this Monday was going be nothing but bad news and you come along with that little piece of positivity!

 

[Findthetone1]

I did hire a moving company. You Haul. And I hired private contractors at more than a living wage.

Wow is right.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

I paid them well. Very well as a matter of fact. They left smiling and I saw them punching each other in the shoulder over 'the score'.

I paid them what the job was worth in my estimation. For 30 minutes hard work, I gave each guy $40 and gave the guy driving the car $10 for gas.

I got my trailer loaded up for under $100 and they got paid $80/hr. Plus a small 'benefit' if you really want to get into the weeds. That's what the job was worth to me.

And I bet you're proud of yourself too. Did you offer them insurance and health benefits? Did you make sure they filled out the proper paperwork for contract labor? Did you even ensure they were authorized to work in the US? Would you have covered medical expenses if one of them were hurt on the job?

Being facetious aside, you're not actually seeing the issues here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject, so I doubt anything I say here would change your view. I'll type it out anyway (hopefully concisely enough since I have several thoughts) that you might actually take another POV into consideration.

To quickly address Americans not wanting to do the work; a large part of this is because government programs provide incentives to sit on the couch and collect subsidies than to get a job. Meaning why get a job when you can get the same amount or potentially more for doing nothing. Take away the subsidies where the choice is get a job or starve, and I bet people would be a lot more willing to do that work.

You may have paid those guys well enough, but that is not always the case. I'm not going to say it's every person that's hanging around at Home Depot or whatever looking for day work, but many are illegal immigrants. They're not authorized to work in the US and shitty companies take advantage of that by paying pennies on the dollar in cash to what they would have to pay a US worker. Not to mention the company skirting around having to pay employment taxes and such.

That leads to the next point. These illegal day laborers are not offered the same protections as a US worker. Technically they may be covered in some aspects. Reality is if something happens they're not provided any protections. Pretend an illegal migrant's hand gets crushed on the job. Company: "I don't know who this guy is. There's no documentation of a labor contract. He isn't supposed to be here. I'm not liable for his injuries" Or from another aspect. The migrant isn't supposed to be in the country in the first place and likely fears deportation. There's a good chance the person wouldn't say anything about the injury in the first place and leave it untreated.

More to the point above, but on the wages side; illegal immigrants are generally reluctant to report wage violations such as underpayment or no compensation for overtime. They also lose the ability to negotiate their wages and depending on the industry lose access to unions. This provides zero pressure to companies to improve the quality of pay or working conditions.

Leading from that point and going back to paying illegal migrants pennies on the dollar. This also has the effect of driving wages down in that field. It's more that just natural capitalism or labor supply & demand. It's artificially driving wages down by creating downward pressure across the particular labor market. It provides employers the opportunity to underbid competitors by circumventing wage standards. In instances where employers would need to introduce better wages or incentives to attract legal workers, hiring illegal migrant at sub-standard wages prevents that wage market from improving organically; i.e. as stated it keeps the wages artificially low.

I know I was talking a little in hypothetical scenarios, but none of this is outside the realm of possibilities and likely happens a lot more that you would like to think or admit. So they're all valid points and this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues caused by hiring illegal migrants. I'm also not going to place the blame solely on illegal migrants either. Companies hiring them share that blame as well. If companies wouldn't be hiring illegal migrants, they wouldn't be coming here for work. But if illegal migrants didn't accept sub-par wages and such, companies wouldn't hire them in the first place. Bit of a catch 22.

Personal opinion on that, I think any company or individual caught employing illegal migrants should be fined heavily.

Anyway I see this is a wall of text so I'm going to stop here.

 

[Findthetone1]

Personal opinion on that, I think any company or individual caught employing illegal migrants should be fined heavily.

100%. Up to and including criminal prosecution if they are caught doing it repeatedly.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

And I bet you're proud of yourself too. Did you offer them insurance and health benefits? Did you make sure they filled out the proper paperwork for contract labor? Did you even ensure they were authorized to work in the US? Would you have covered medical expenses if one of them were hurt on the job?

Being facetious aside, you're not actually seeing the issues here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject, so I doubt anything I say here would change your view. I'll type it out anyway (hopefully concisely enough since I have several thoughts) that you might actually take another POV into consideration.

To quickly address Americans not wanting to do the work; a large part of this is because government programs provide incentives to sit on the couch and collect subsidies than to get a job. Meaning why get a job when you can get the same amount or potentially more for doing nothing. Take away the subsidies where the choice is get a job or starve, and I bet people would be a lot more willing to do that work.

You may have paid those guys well enough, but that is not always the case. I'm not going to say it's every person that's hanging around at Home Depot or whatever looking for day work, but many are illegal immigrants. They're not authorized to work in the US and shitty companies take advantage of that by paying pennies on the dollar in cash to what they would have to pay a US worker. Not to mention the company skirting around having to pay employment taxes and such.

That leads to the next point. These illegal day laborers are not offered the same protections as a US worker. Technically they may be covered in some aspects. Reality is if something happens they're not provided any protections. Pretend an illegal migrant's hand gets crushed on the job. Company: "I don't know who this guy is. There's no documentation of a labor contract. He isn't supposed to be here. I'm not liable for his injuries" Or from another aspect. The migrant isn't supposed to be in the country in the first place and likely fears deportation. There's a good chance the person wouldn't say anything about the injury in the first place and leave it untreated.

More to the point above, but on the wages side; illegal immigrants are generally reluctant to report wage violations such as underpayment or no compensation for overtime. They also lose the ability to negotiate their wages and depending on the industry lose access to unions. This provides zero pressure to companies to improve the quality of pay or working conditions.

Leading from that point and going back to paying illegal migrants pennies on the dollar. This also has the effect of driving wages down in that field. It's more that just natural capitalism or labor supply & demand. It's artificially driving wages down by creating downward pressure across the particular labor market. It provides employers the opportunity to underbid competitors by circumventing wage standards. In instances where employers would need to introduce better wages or incentives to attract legal workers, hiring illegal migrant at sub-standard wages prevents that wage market from improving organically; i.e. as stated it keeps the wages artificially low.

I know I was talking a little in hypothetical scenarios, but none of this is outside the realm of possibilities and likely happens a lot more that you would like to think or admit. So they're all valid points and this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues caused by hiring illegal migrants. I'm also not going to place the blame solely on illegal migrants either. Companies hiring them share that blame as well. If companies wouldn't be hiring illegal migrants, they wouldn't be coming here for work. But if illegal migrants didn't accept sub-par wages and such, companies wouldn't hire them in the first place. Bit of a catch 22.

Personal opinion on that, I think any company or individual caught employing illegal migrants should be fined heavily.

Anyway I see this is a wall of text so I'm going to stop here.

Thank you for taking the time to post that.

I'll try to reply to your very good points later. No, I'm NOT going golfing. We're off to Costco and then I need to do some handyman crap around the house. The dishwasher isn't draining properly and I need to see if I can fix it myself. Hopefully youtube can point me in the right direction.

 

[Findthetone1]

Thank you for taking the time to post that.

I'll try to reply to your very good points later. No, I'm NOT going golfing. We're off to Costco and then I need to do some handyman crap around the house. The dishwasher isn't draining properly and I need to see if I can fix it myself. Hopefully youtube can point me in the right direction.

We'll all be waiting with GREAT anticipation for you to expound on it....

 

[Robostyle]

I did hire a moving company. You Haul. And I hired private contractors at more than a living wage.

Wow is right.

EDIT: Hey, I'd hate to see you hurt yourself trying to bend yourself into a pretzel finding ways to turn this into something you can criticize.

Take it easy bud. Strains take a long time to heal.

While we're on the subject of pretzels, U haul is a rental company, not a moving company.
Those "private contractors" as you call them- were they licensed, bonded and insured? No?
Then they weren't contractors.
I'm actually surprised to see you doing this mental pole-vault to justify your own illegal activity. And blaming capitalism too is a huge copout.
I thought you were smarter than that.

 

[Robostyle]

And I bet you're proud of yourself too. Did you offer them insurance and health benefits? Did you make sure they filled out the proper paperwork for contract labor? Did you even ensure they were authorized to work in the US? Would you have covered medical expenses if one of them were hurt on the job?

Being facetious aside, you're not actually seeing the issues here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject, so I doubt anything I say here would change your view. I'll type it out anyway (hopefully concisely enough since I have several thoughts) that you might actually take another POV into consideration.

To quickly address Americans not wanting to do the work; a large part of this is because government programs provide incentives to sit on the couch and collect subsidies than to get a job. Meaning why get a job when you can get the same amount or potentially more for doing nothing. Take away the subsidies where the choice is get a job or starve, and I bet people would be a lot more willing to do that work.

You may have paid those guys well enough, but that is not always the case. I'm not going to say it's every person that's hanging around at Home Depot or whatever looking for day work, but many are illegal immigrants. They're not authorized to work in the US and shitty companies take advantage of that by paying pennies on the dollar in cash to what they would have to pay a US worker. Not to mention the company skirting around having to pay employment taxes and such.

That leads to the next point. These illegal day laborers are not offered the same protections as a US worker. Technically they may be covered in some aspects. Reality is if something happens they're not provided any protections. Pretend an illegal migrant's hand gets crushed on the job. Company: "I don't know who this guy is. There's no documentation of a labor contract. He isn't supposed to be here. I'm not liable for his injuries" Or from another aspect. The migrant isn't supposed to be in the country in the first place and likely fears deportation. There's a good chance the person wouldn't say anything about the injury in the first place and leave it untreated.

More to the point above, but on the wages side; illegal immigrants are generally reluctant to report wage violations such as underpayment or no compensation for overtime. They also lose the ability to negotiate their wages and depending on the industry lose access to unions. This provides zero pressure to companies to improve the quality of pay or working conditions.

Leading from that point and going back to paying illegal migrants pennies on the dollar. This also has the effect of driving wages down in that field. It's more that just natural capitalism or labor supply & demand. It's artificially driving wages down by creating downward pressure across the particular labor market. It provides employers the opportunity to underbid competitors by circumventing wage standards. In instances where employers would need to introduce better wages or incentives to attract legal workers, hiring illegal migrant at sub-standard wages prevents that wage market from improving organically; i.e. as stated it keeps the wages artificially low.

I know I was talking a little in hypothetical scenarios, but none of this is outside the realm of possibilities and likely happens a lot more that you would like to think or admit. So they're all valid points and this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues caused by hiring illegal migrants. I'm also not going to place the blame solely on illegal migrants either. Companies hiring them share that blame as well. If companies wouldn't be hiring illegal migrants, they wouldn't be coming here for work. But if illegal migrants didn't accept sub-par wages and such, companies wouldn't hire them in the first place. Bit of a catch 22.

Personal opinion on that, I think any company or individual caught employing illegal migrants should be fined heavily.

Anyway I see this is a wall of text so I'm going to stop here.

As someone who lives in Southern California, i'm sure James is well aware of all of this information.
He is just using poor excuses to justify his illegal activity.
Or maybe his head really is that far up his own ass that he thinks he's doing the "right thing", Californians have been doing this for so long that they see nothing wrong with it, even acting like they are "helping" which is sickening.

 

[Findthetone1]

I thought you were smarter than that.

Well, HE certainly thinks so.

 

[Robostyle]

Well, HE certainly thinks so.

The 1% blooze golfer lmao

 

[Geo]

Good job lefties. I can't wait for the boot of justice to pummel you queers.

 

[JamesTiberiusKirk]

And I bet you're proud of yourself too. Did you offer them insurance and health benefits? Did you make sure they filled out the proper paperwork for contract labor? Did you even ensure they were authorized to work in the US? Would you have covered medical expenses if one of them were hurt on the job?

Being facetious aside, you're not actually seeing the issues here. You seem to have already made up your mind on the subject, so I doubt anything I say here would change your view. I'll type it out anyway (hopefully concisely enough since I have several thoughts) that you might actually take another POV into consideration.

To quickly address Americans not wanting to do the work; a large part of this is because government programs provide incentives to sit on the couch and collect subsidies than to get a job. Meaning why get a job when you can get the same amount or potentially more for doing nothing. Take away the subsidies where the choice is get a job or starve, and I bet people would be a lot more willing to do that work.

You may have paid those guys well enough, but that is not always the case. I'm not going to say it's every person that's hanging around at Home Depot or whatever looking for day work, but many are illegal immigrants. They're not authorized to work in the US and shitty companies take advantage of that by paying pennies on the dollar in cash to what they would have to pay a US worker. Not to mention the company skirting around having to pay employment taxes and such.

That leads to the next point. These illegal day laborers are not offered the same protections as a US worker. Technically they may be covered in some aspects. Reality is if something happens they're not provided any protections. Pretend an illegal migrant's hand gets crushed on the job. Company: "I don't know who this guy is. There's no documentation of a labor contract. He isn't supposed to be here. I'm not liable for his injuries" Or from another aspect. The migrant isn't supposed to be in the country in the first place and likely fears deportation. There's a good chance the person wouldn't say anything about the injury in the first place and leave it untreated.

More to the point above, but on the wages side; illegal immigrants are generally reluctant to report wage violations such as underpayment or no compensation for overtime. They also lose the ability to negotiate their wages and depending on the industry lose access to unions. This provides zero pressure to companies to improve the quality of pay or working conditions.

Leading from that point and going back to paying illegal migrants pennies on the dollar. This also has the effect of driving wages down in that field. It's more that just natural capitalism or labor supply & demand. It's artificially driving wages down by creating downward pressure across the particular labor market. It provides employers the opportunity to underbid competitors by circumventing wage standards. In instances where employers would need to introduce better wages or incentives to attract legal workers, hiring illegal migrant at sub-standard wages prevents that wage market from improving organically; i.e. as stated it keeps the wages artificially low.

I know I was talking a little in hypothetical scenarios, but none of this is outside the realm of possibilities and likely happens a lot more that you would like to think or admit. So they're all valid points and this is just the tip of the iceberg with issues caused by hiring illegal migrants. I'm also not going to place the blame solely on illegal migrants either. Companies hiring them share that blame as well. If companies wouldn't be hiring illegal migrants, they wouldn't be coming here for work. But if illegal migrants didn't accept sub-par wages and such, companies wouldn't hire them in the first place. Bit of a catch 22.

Personal opinion on that, I think any company or individual caught employing illegal migrants should be fined heavily.

Anyway I see this is a wall of text so I'm going to stop here.

You made some excellent point, which for the most part I agree with.

The one thing I'd like to point out, is my anecdote wasn't "employment" in the way all the examples you gave are. It was a...damn, I'm stuck for a word now. It was like when you get the kid down the street to do your walk or your lawn. Like we did when we were kids. No one gives out tax forms and all that crap for a kid doing the walk. If your buddy helps you move a mattress up to the second floor bedroom you don't hand him a contract for employment, you hand him a beer and a slice of pizza.

Ok, back to the tasks at hand here. I unplugged her bathroom sink drain (yay for snakes), I got the dishwasher half way torn down and got sidelined.

Back to the dishwasher. Wish me luck.

 

[VonBonfire]

The one thing I'd like to point out, is my anecdote wasn't "employment" in the way all the examples you gave are. It was a...damn, I'm stuck for a word now. It was like when you get the kid down the street to do your walk or your lawn. Like we did when we were kids. No one gives out tax forms and all that crap for a kid doing the walk. If your buddy helps you move a mattress up to the second floor bedroom you don't hand him a contract for employment, you hand him a beer and a slice of pizza.

It was employment but they were freelancing or independent contractors so no tax forms are required for work under $600 paid to one person for the year before a W-9 needs to be filled out by the freelancer. Thanks to Trump's one big beautiful bill that amount has been raised to $2000 dollars starting this year. That and the no tax on tips have been among the few items I think were good ideas on his part. Of course I'm biased because I am an independent contractor. Good afternoon James.

 

[Findthetone1]

You made some excellent point, which for the most part I agree with.

The one thing I'd like to point out, is my anecdote wasn't "employment" in the way all the examples you gave are. It was a...damn, I'm stuck for a word now. It was like when you get the kid down the street to do your walk or your lawn. Like we did when we were kids. No one gives out tax forms and all that crap for a kid doing the walk. If your buddy helps you move a mattress up to the second floor bedroom you don't hand him a contract for employment, you hand him a beer and a slice of pizza.

Ok, back to the tasks at hand here. I unplugged her bathroom sink drain (yay for snakes), I got the dishwasher half way torn down and got sidelined.

Back to the dishwasher. Wish me luck.

Probably one of the most fucked up comparisons I've read that you've posted. Comparing illegal invaders of this country to the high school kids mowing lawns or friends helping friends move. Good job!! You've managed to make yourself look even more stupid than normal. And you still have the whole week to work with!

 

[Shevek]

Ehnvaydurrrrz!