Educating a tyrant on the purpose of 2A

[Dan Gleesak]

if rights come from humans, they can be taken away by humans.

inalienable rights come from a higher power that cannot be taken away by a lower power.

All persons are born free and have certain inalienable rights which include the right of pursuing life's basic necessities, of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and of seeking their safety, health and happiness in all lawful ways.

I’ve never understood “inalienable” to imply a higher power, unless in this case the higher power is the government

 

[84superchamp]

I still want a M61 vulcan minigun without a permission slip aka tax stamp.

Nothing mini about it:

That’s you, man! (Stolen quote from T2).

 

[84superchamp]

if rights come from humans, they can be taken away by humans.

inalienable rights come from a higher power that cannot be taken away by a lower power.

All persons are born free and have certain inalienable rights which include the right of pursuing life's basic necessities, of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and of seeking their safety, health and happiness in all lawful ways.

The founding fathers placed a lot of emphasis on God and the Bible, a good foundation for democracy. As the population migrates away from those principles, they want the constitution to migrate with them. “Living Document” i.e. it should be changed when “we” see fit is utter horseshit.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I’ve never understood “inalienable” to imply a higher power, unless in this case the higher power is the government

The document says endowed by our creator. That’s pretty much the definition of a natural right. Certainly in the 1770s. There wasn’t a human on the planet in 1776 who believed we evolved out of primordial sludge.

 

[Floyd Eye]

if rights come from humans, they can be taken away by humans.

inalienable rights come from a higher power that cannot be taken away by a lower power.

All persons are born free and have certain inalienable rights which include the right of pursuing life's basic necessities, of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties, of acquiring, possessing and protecting property and of seeking their safety, health and happiness in all lawful ways.

I see you are correcting unalienable to inalienable.
However, the founders used Unalienable.

 

[311boogieman]

It’s not really about hunting my friend. If it was we would only have shotguns and single shot bolt rifles.

Oh I know. I was just saying that needs to be thrown in as well. There are other countries were you can't even hunt and they confiscate your guns.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

The document says endowed by our creator. That’s pretty much the definition of a natural right. Certainly in the 1770s. There wasn’t a human on the planet in 1776 who believed we evolved out of primordial sludge.

I’m not sure the poor state of 18th century science is a shining endorsement of why people should own guns. You’ve said yourself in climate threads that historical data is worthless.

My point being from the very beginning is that I believe “god given” is added to gun discussions to give it a false sense of importance. I believe I used grandiose earlier. It is still very important, but not because of God

If anything it puts it in a precarious position. There is no more proof of God than there is of not. Given the way the rights have been explained to me here, a hypothetical invalidation of God would also hypothetically invalidate the Bill of Rights. I don’t think anyone wants that.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

The founding fathers placed a lot of emphasis on God and the Bible, a good foundation for democracy. As the population migrates away from those principles, they want the constitution to migrate with them. “Living Document” i.e. it should be changed when “we” see fit is utter horseshit.

I think this argument is convenient for protecting gun rights, but doesn’t embody the entire document. I don’t intend to steer this convo away from guns and into a rabbit hole, but I think we can all agree that something like the amendment to let women also vote was pretty important and not utter horseshit.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I’m not sure the poor state of 18th century science is a shining endorsement of why people should own guns. You’ve said yourself in climate threads that historical data is worthless.

My point being from the very beginning is that I believe “god given” is added to gun discussions to give it a false sense of importance. I believe I used grandiose earlier. It is still very important, but not because of God

If anything it puts it in a precarious position. There is no more proof of God than there is of not. Given the way the rights have been explained to me here, a hypothetical invalidation of God would also hypothetically invalidate the Bill of Rights. I don’t think anyone wants that.

You miss the point dude. It has fuck all to do with god. These are natural rights all human beings have. The " Given to us by our creator" bit merely makes the point that the founders ( rightly) believed all free men are born with these rights. They are not given to us by our government. They are ours and the BOR merely insures the government cannot take them. In fact there were those who believed the BOR wasn't necessary at all, that THESE TRUTHS ARE SELF EVIDENT.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

You miss the point dude. It has fuck all to do with god. These are natural rights all human beings have. The " Given to us by our creator" bit merely makes the point that the founders ( rightly) believed all free men are born with these rights. They are not given to us by our government. They are ours and the BOR merely insures the government cannot take them. In fact there were those who believed the BOR wasn't necessary at all, that THESE TRUTHS ARE SELF EVIDENT.

The point I’ve been trying to make the whole time is that don’t doesn’t have fuck all about God.

 

[Floyd Eye]

The point I’ve been trying to make the whole time is that don’t doesn’t have fuck all about God.

Endowed by our creator is just an expression meant to imply NOT endowed by the government. And since there isn't a human in history who knows for a fact who or what our creator is, god is as valid as primordial sludge for sure.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Endowed by our creator is just an expression meant to imply NOT endowed by the government. And since there isn't a human in history who knows for a fact who or what our creator is, god is as valid as primordial sludge for sure.

So it does have fuck all to do with God?

 

[Floyd Eye]

So it does have fuck all to do with God?

Dan, you have clearly spent too much time arguing with those two. You are just going in circles over and over.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Dan, you have clearly spent too much time arguing with those two. You are just going in circles over and over.

I just don’t get it. I think I’ve been very clear that 2a is important. Self defense? Sure. Protection against the government? Ok why not

But to say it has absolutely anything to do with a greater power, something bigger than us, whatever you want to call it, is putting it in a pedestal it does not belong on. Human rights are human. Created by humans for humans.

 

[Floyd Eye]

I just don’t get it. I think I’ve been very clear that 2a is important. Self defense? Sure. Protection against the government? Ok why not

But to say it has absolutely anything to do with a greater power, something bigger than us, whatever you want to call it, is putting it in a pedestal it does not belong on. Human rights are human. Created by humans for humans.

Who said it wasn't human ? We are humans. We are the preeminent form of life on the planet currently. And we are born with the rights of self determination and the right to self preservation. Men way fucking smarter than any of us figured this shit out several hundred years ago. You're thinking too far into it.

 

[Dan Gleesak]

Who said it wasn't human ? We are humans. We are the preeminent form of life on the planet currently. And we are born with the rights of self determination and the right to self preservation. Men way fucking smarter than any of us figured this shit out several hundred years ago. You're thinking too far into it.

I think the guy in the video said his guns were his God given right to make it sound more important than it was. It was unnecessary and presumptuous.
That was my literal first post.

“I’m not sure those rights were given to him by God”

I had no intention of going deeper than that. I didn’t bring up the minutiae and verbiage of a document to defend my stance.
I also didn’t go into different meanings and interpretations of “the pursuit of happiness”, I didn’t mention that Jefferson also wrote “all men are created equal” in between glancing out the window to his plantation. I don’t want to downplay the constitution because I think it is a great achievement. A great human achievement. It has nothing to do with a higher power.

all I wanted to say was that dude in the video was being very over dramatic

 

[Ben Waylin]

Dan, you have clearly spent too much time arguing with those two. You are just going in circles over and over.

 

[jdel77]

You clearly never read anything written by the people who wrote the second amendment. Fresh off King George you don’t think the framers were setting the new government up to be able to throw off the yoke of a tyrannical government ? You apparently don’t know what the term well regulated or militia meant when it was written either.

Mate this makes zero sense. None. Nada.
Write a law which allows the government to throw off its' own tyrannical yoke? What? Why would a government create a rule which would make itself untenable? The 13 Colonies had just proven how successful they could be in Revolutionary War - this doesn't make sense to me.

"Well regulated militia" means armed, land owning citizens who would give and follow orders and carry them out competently in the field.

I still say that the 2A was written by the newly formed USA Government to create a provision for citizens to join the ranks of the army against the kind of Left Wing extremism which was running rampant through and nearly ruined France.

I further believe that rather than acting in the interests of citizens and fostering a sense of loyalty and cooperation between them and the Government, the NRA has instilled a culture of fear and suspicion through the USA, happily raking in the profits from scared citizens who must register their guns. Look at how severe the penalties are for owning unregistered guns! It's money making and Republican Senators love it:

https://www.newsweek.com/republican-senators-nra-funding-texas-school-shooting-uvalde-1710332

 

[Floyd Eye]

Mate this makes zero sense. None. Nada.
Write a law which allows the government to throw off its' own tyrannical yoke? What? Why would a government create a rule which would make itself untenable? The 13 Colonies had just proven how successful they could be in Revolutionary War - this doesn't make sense to me.

"Well regulated militia" means armed, land owning citizens who would give and follow orders and carry them out competently in the field.

I still say that the 2A was written by the newly formed USA Government to create a provision for citizens to join the ranks of the army against the kind of Left Wing extremism which was running rampant through and nearly ruined France.

I further believe that rather than acting in the interests of citizens and fostering a sense of loyalty and cooperation between them and the Government, the NRA has instilled a culture of fear and suspicion through the USA, happily raking in the profits from scared citizens who must register their guns. Look at how severe the penalties are for owning unregistered guns! It's money making and Republican Senators love it:

https://www.newsweek.com/republican-senators-nra-funding-texas-school-shooting-uvalde-1710332

You should read what the people who wrote it had to say about it's meaning. You should at least read something from somewhere else other than where you're reading it. We don't register our guns here. It's clear wherever you get your faulty info is someone doing democratic politicians and anti-gun activist's work for them. Evil NRA amirite.

The constitution doesn't give the government power. It doesn't tell you what the government CAN do, it tells you what it CAN'T do. It was written for the people, by the people. The same people in the second sentence of the 2A. It absolutely was written specifically to restrain the government from doing the shit England was doing to the colonists. This is basic US history. Before you start trying to tackle subtle subsections of US constitutional law, you should maybe just concentrate on basic US history.
The first sentence in the 2A in no way negates or restrains the second sentence. Which is pretty fucking clear. Militia is all able bodied men and well regulated meant well trained and equipped.

 

[JackBootedThug]

I’m not sure those rights were given to him by God

The right to defend yourself, your property and your family…yup those are natural rights…