Engineering help on Amplifier Design

[glip22]

Luke,

I also enjoyed our phone calls. I however wanted to clear up what you said in that post, so people don't get the wrong idea about me. As I'd mentioned to you even in our first phone conversation, it's not so much about getting a sale as it is about helping you get what you really want (since I'll get sales anyway, and I'd rather not sell an amp to someone who doesn't really want it). I thought your friend's amp was a good fit for him already, so you'll recall how in the end I was trying to steer you toward getting it re-capped (and possibly having a new loop added) by a local tech. So I have no hard feelings about that.

About what you've learned you like in an amp--those things, out of context, don't say much. For instance, if a Fender amp uses an OT with a higher impedance: if the amp uses 6L6, a higher impedance is a better match than the lower impedance a Marshall OT (with EL34) would have; it's about keeping it an apples-to-apples comparison, since those two tube types generally work in their "normal ranges" (with a relatively similar power amp design) if the output impedance is appropriate. Also if you've found the amps you like use a B+ of a certain range, perhaps it's due to other things and not so much the B+ level. Maybe you just like old Marshall amps. Don't get distracted by technical details, when you know what amps you like anyway.

James is one of the best in the business. A sale to him was always second.

 

[LukeCurd]

My tastes change from month to month.

Which is exactly why I wouldn't be breaking my neck to help you design anything, and likely why the other builders aren't either. Nobody wants to build or help you build something that you may hate a month after you get it just because you can't decide what you want.

Sorry if that is how I came off.

 

[LukeCurd]

Luke,

I also enjoyed our phone calls. I however wanted to clear up what you said in that post, so people don't get the wrong idea about me. As I'd mentioned to you even in our first phone conversation, it's not so much about getting a sale as it is about helping you get what you really want (since I'll get sales anyway, and I'd rather not sell an amp to someone who doesn't really want it). I thought your friend's amp was a good fit for him already, so you'll recall how in the end I was trying to steer you toward getting it re-capped (and possibly having a new loop added) by a local tech. So I have no hard feelings about that.

About what you've learned you like in an amp--those things, out of context, don't say much. For instance, if a Fender amp uses an OT with a higher impedance: if the amp uses 6L6, a higher impedance is a better match than the lower impedance a Marshall OT (with EL34) would have; it's about keeping it an apples-to-apples comparison, since those two tube types generally work in their "normal ranges" (with a relatively similar power amp design) if the output impedance is appropriate. Also if you've found the amps you like use a B+ of a certain range, perhaps it's due to other things and not so much the B+ level. Maybe you just like old Marshall amps. Don't get distracted by technical details, when you know what amps you like anyway.

James,

Sorry again. Its hard to tell how my posts sounds unless someone else tells me I was rude. Let me try again.

Amps owned in the past:
Ampeg V4 Kt88
Ampeg Vt40 El34s
Ampeg Vt40 6CA7's
Ampeg Vt40 6l6.
Bogner Uberschall Rev Blue el34's
Mesa Subway Rocket 1x10 combo class a
Mesa Blue Angel 1x12 combo class a
Mesa Dual Rect 2 ch 6l6s
Mesa Dual Rect 3 ch 6l6s
Mesa Rectro Pre into
Mesa 2:100 5881
98 CAE OD-100 6l6
00 CAE OD-100 6l6
Two Fuchs Vipers ht88
Tiesco Checkmate 25 el84

I guess what I am looking to build is a mix of the old and new for me. And since I didn't see anyone else market this design it wouldn't be ripping anyone off. Also since there isn't much of a customer for such a product there is no point in considering mass production. So in the end its a just an idea for me. Again this is something I was just throwing out there. If your down to experiment cool. If not, cool.

Regards,
Luke

 

[Cflat96]

It sounds like you don't know what you want, let alone understand what you're even talking about. I can only imagine these discussions you've been having with those builders. One already hinted at you wanting a custom design for cheaper than his standard models, and what you were asking for to be incoherent at best.

Maybe you don't know as much as you think, and the people who do know what they're doing think you're a nutcase.

 

[LukeCurd]

It sounds like you don't know what you want, let alone understand what you're even talking about. I can only imagine these discussions you've been having with those builders. One already hinted at you wanting a custom design for cheaper than his standard models, and what you were asking for to be incoherent at best.

Maybe you don't know as much as you think, and the people who do know what they're doing think you're a nutcase.

See this is why I wish James never posted in this thread. All it does is confuse outsiders that were not involved!

The "Custom Job" I asked James about was a striped down single channel amp. I told him I wanted something that sounded like a VH4 CH3. James told me while he doesn't copy designs but urged me to take a listen of a few clips that he thought would get close. I listened to the clips on the site and decided I would have to play the amp in person. End of fucking story!

I called up Bogner to ask if they could build or mod a TJ Uberschall to have the plate voltages and specs of the rev green. They declined but told me to look on the used market.

Back when I sold my OD-100's I called up John Suhr and asked for a cheaper version of the amp in a single channel form. John Suhr built it however it cost more than the od100 amps? Less features more tone more money? I dunno?

I can go on and on about every conversation I have had with amp companies but what's the point.

 

[Cflat96]

Lol. Yeah. Like I said.

 

[JerryP]

It sounds like you don't know what you want, let alone understand what you're even talking about. I can only imagine these discussions you've been having with those builders. One already hinted at you wanting a custom design for cheaper than his standard models, and what you were asking for to be incoherent at best.

Maybe you don't know as much as you think, and the people who do know what they're doing think you're a nutcase.

See this is why I wish James never posted in this thread. All it does is confuse outsiders that were not involved!

The "Custom Job" I asked James about was a striped down single channel amp. I told him I wanted something that sounded like a VH4 CH3. James told me while he doesn't copy designs but urged me to take a listen of a few clips that he thought would get close. I listened to the clips on the site and decided I would have to play the amp in person. End of fucking story!

I called up Bogner to ask if they could build or mod a TJ Uberschall to have the plate voltages and specs of the rev green. They declined but told me to look on the used market.

Back when I sold my OD-100's I called up John Suhr and asked for a cheaper version of the amp in a single channel form. John Suhr built it however it cost more than the od100 amps? Less features more tone more money? I dunno?

I can go on and on about every conversation I have had with amp companies but what's the point.

Custom stuff will cost WAY more no matter who does it. Call a fabrication shop and get a price quote on a chassis, just one and see how much it costs. Then get a price on 50. Then factor in the price to have someone draw it up in CAD. The manufacturing cost and time to plan out and build something custom is not cheap, so less features can easily cost you more going with a custom build. Most of the cost in a product is the design and development. This isn't an AxeFX where you just dial in a different plate voltage and it all works. Everything has to work together. That's why companies have research and development departments. To spend a lot of time and money developing products. If it was as easy as having an idea everyone would do it. Just because there are paint by number amp kits available cheap doesn't mean you'll get a knowledgeable tech to assemble it cheap with your changes.
Think about how many standard models anyone of these guys could build in the time they would have to spend planning out your ideas and all the money they would lose by not spending that time building their own products.
Jerry

 

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you don't know what you want, let alone understand what you're even talking about. I can only imagine these discussions you've been having with those builders. One already hinted at you wanting a custom design for cheaper than his standard models, and what you were asking for to be incoherent at best.

Maybe you don't know as much as you think, and the people who do know what they're doing think you're a nutcase.

See this is why I wish James never posted in this thread. All it does is confuse outsiders that were not involved!

The "Custom Job" I asked James about was a striped down single channel amp. I told him I wanted something that sounded like a VH4 CH3. James told me while he doesn't copy designs but urged me to take a listen of a few clips that he thought would get close. I listened to the clips on the site and decided I would have to play the amp in person. End of fucking story!

I called up Bogner to ask if they could build or mod a TJ Uberschall to have the plate voltages and specs of the rev green. They declined but told me to look on the used market.

Back when I sold my OD-100's I called up John Suhr and asked for a cheaper version of the amp in a single channel form. John Suhr built it however it cost more than the od100 amps? Less features more tone more money? I dunno?

I can go on and on about every conversation I have had with amp companies but what's the point.

Custom stuff will cost WAY more no matter who does it. Call a fabrication shop and get a price quote on a chassis, just one and see how much it costs. Then get a price on 50. Then factor in the price to have someone draw it up in CAD. The manufacturing cost and time to plan out and build something custom is not cheap, so less features can easily cost you more going with a custom build. Most of the cost in a product is the design and development. This isn't an AxeFX where you just dial in a different plate voltage and it all works. Everything has to work together. That's why companies have research and development departments. To spend a lot of time and money developing products. If it was as easy as having an idea everyone would do it. Just because there are paint by number amp kits available cheap doesn't mean you'll get a knowledgeable tech to assemble it cheap with your changes.
Think about how many standard models anyone of these guys could build in the time they would have to spend planning out your ideas and all the money they would lose by not spending that time building their own products.
Jerry

When I was designing my amp I had to have a prototype chassis made. I had to have it zinc plated, powder coated and silkscreened to match what the production version would look like. Total for that one chassis was $576. When I ordered my first production set of 30, the were less than $70 apiece. My set of 4 prototype PCBs fully tested without any parts were $3000. No I order 15 sets of 4 for less than that.

I think that pretty much explains the whole one off custom thing...

Steve

 

[LukeCurd]

It sounds like you don't know what you want, let alone understand what you're even talking about. I can only imagine these discussions you've been having with those builders. One already hinted at you wanting a custom design for cheaper than his standard models, and what you were asking for to be incoherent at best.

Maybe you don't know as much as you think, and the people who do know what they're doing think you're a nutcase.

See this is why I wish James never posted in this thread. All it does is confuse outsiders that were not involved!

The "Custom Job" I asked James about was a striped down single channel amp. I told him I wanted something that sounded like a VH4 CH3. James told me while he doesn't copy designs but urged me to take a listen of a few clips that he thought would get close. I listened to the clips on the site and decided I would have to play the amp in person. End of fucking story!

I called up Bogner to ask if they could build or mod a TJ Uberschall to have the plate voltages and specs of the rev green. They declined but told me to look on the used market.

Back when I sold my OD-100's I called up John Suhr and asked for a cheaper version of the amp in a single channel form. John Suhr built it however it cost more than the od100 amps? Less features more tone more money? I dunno?

I can go on and on about every conversation I have had with amp companies but what's the point.

Custom stuff will cost WAY more no matter who does it. Call a fabrication shop and get a price quote on a chassis, just one and see how much it costs. Then get a price on 50. Then factor in the price to have someone draw it up in CAD. The manufacturing cost and time to plan out and build something custom is not cheap, so less features can easily cost you more going with a custom build. Most of the cost in a product is the design and development. This isn't an AxeFX where you just dial in a different plate voltage and it all works. Everything has to work together. That's why companies have research and development departments. To spend a lot of time and money developing products. If it was as easy as having an idea everyone would do it. Just because there are paint by number amp kits available cheap doesn't mean you'll get a knowledgeable tech to assemble it cheap with your changes.
Think about how many standard models anyone of these guys could build in the time they would have to spend planning out your ideas and all the money they would lose by not spending that time building their own products.
Jerry

I have found you are correct. At first you would think of it as simple as getting a base model car without the heated seats and navigation system. The base model is the price then you can upgrade. It seems like I am asking for a base model corvette that isn't being made.

I figured $500 was a fair price for a working design to my specs. And since other people I have spoke with told me its a rather simple design I figured there is no harm in asking. How many amp companies including yourself use a Marshall style output section? I could name 100 amps off the top of my head. Only slight variations in tone to my ear.

Its about the cost of a mod or the books I would need to figure it out. I guess I should keep this stuff to the other forums like metro,sloclone,music electronics, vintage amps, marshall forum. Anywhere I don't get a emotional response.

I plugged into a Suhr SL-68 at the Segas amp show. Sounded ok. Had a Virtual variac? Meaning it had a $5 switch to change input voltage settings from 120 to 90 off the PT tap. Cool Idea but once you figure out its just a switch the $4,000 price tag of the amp kinda seems high!

Now its a cool amp and Peter Thorn is playing live with them. Not the amp or price range for me, so who cares.

After buying and selling gear over the years I have learned to do a bit more research. I don't care who plays it other than me. I don't want to sound like anyone else. I wanted something unique to me but that would only take a Amp builder a few tweaks to get the lows,mids, and highs where I want them.

Now my research has answered some questions but raised even more. At that point I ask for help and get bashed for it.

I have lots of schematics and reference material for anyone interested.

 

[Cflat96]

Does anyone else get the impression that he's in a mental hospital and somehow got access to the internet?

 

[glpg80]

I dont think you have the slightest clue what it takes to get a working amplifier and to do it correctly. You can not be a cheap bastard and get into R&D. What you want done requires years of schooling. The amount of time to do what you want done is underestimated. The amount of money allocated is a joke. That $500 is closer to about $5000 after all is said and done. Tools, software, time, errors, parts, and tuning.

You are the same guy that wanted his own thread to post informative clips with absolutely no user input. The example post had so many generalizations and incorrect theoretical assumptions that it disproved your own thread in the starting post.

Buy a completed ceriatone amplifier, get off the forums, and get to hacking at it. When it does not work as intended then you will realize its not as easy as cutting and pasting schematics with elmers glue. Whether or not you have what it takes to get it working will determine how far off you are on that $500 budget.

 

[LukeCurd]

Does anyone else get the impression that he's in a mental hospital and somehow got access to the internet?

They have wifi at the hospital now.

 

[Bob Savage]

See this is why I wish James never posted in this thread. All it does is confuse outsiders that were not involved!

Have you not noticed that a lot of "outsiders" seem to be confused by your posts and/or approach? Is it more likely it's usually everyone else, or you?

 

[Bob Savage]

You are the same guy that wanted his own thread to post informative clips with absolutely no user input. The example post had so many generalizations and incorrect theoretical assumptions that it disproved your own thread in the starting post.

Actually, he wanted a dedicated forum, just for the "facts."

 

[glpg80]

You are the same guy that wanted his own thread to post informative clips with absolutely no user input. The example post had so many generalizations and incorrect theoretical assumptions that it disproved your own thread in the starting post.

Actually, he wanted a dedicated forum, just for the "facts."

i apologize master of the wood whispering

 

[JamesPeters]

Hi Luke,

So you know, I was only posting to clear up something you were saying about me. I wasn't hoping to create any confusion about you. I have no hard feelings against you, I'm not trying to run you through the mud or anything, so I hope you understand.

Your comment about your custom amp costing $500 though… Honestly, you should say that first thing when you're talking to somebody about a custom design. Had I known that's the price that you expected to pay for what you were asking for, the conversation would've been over very quickly. My cost of parts alone even for single channel amp, is considerably higher than $500. I suspect the same is true for all of the people you were talking to.

I don't blame you for wanting something possibly different from what you've already found on the market. Expecting it to cost less than a Bugera amp however, is another story.

Anyway, if you are still going to pursue a custom design, I would recommend one more thing: don't mention too much about technical specifications to the potential builder of the product. Focus more on the sound and functionality you want, make sure you don't presume something about the functionality which may not be true Based on anecdotal experience with other amplifiers. If you do that, you limit what the amp designer is capable of performing.

 

[LukeCurd]

You are the same guy that wanted his own thread to post informative clips with absolutely no user input. The example post had so many generalizations and incorrect theoretical assumptions that it disproved your own thread in the starting post.

Actually, he wanted a dedicated forum, just for the "facts."

No I wanted a Side forum on just trouble shooting problems. Q/A style.

How many ground loop, tube questions, strings etc threads have we all seen. I thought it would be helpful is all.

 

[Deleted member 10619]

A musician's approach to music:

1. Buy the tools.
2. Use those tools and learn how to use them with some sort of basic guidance.
3. Explore, understand and experiment with those tools, your body will gradually adapt to the new experience.
3. Buy finer tools that will help you execute things with better results and without wasting so much energy.
4. Develop your technique even further until you have specialized and dominated certain areas.
5. Consider modifying existing tools or/and obtaining specialized tools for your current capabilities at this stage.
6. Expand your knowledge of how to use your current tools in new and interesting ways in order to facilitate communication with others.

LukeCurd's approach to music:

1. Listen to clips of a bunch of players testing high quality amps on the internet.
2. Make up a list of amps you liked in those clips.
3. Contact world renowned amp builders and tell them to copy-paste all the sounds and features of the amps you liked on those clips.
4. Explain that you want to sound unique and different to all of the guitarists in the world for $500-$1500.
5. Change your mind every month on what sounds and features you are looking for in an amp.
6. Ask for help at Rig-Talk.

 

[Bob Savage]

No I wanted a Side forum on just trouble shooting problems. Q/A style.

How many ground loop, tube questions, strings etc threads have we all seen. I thought it would be helpful is all.

Your examples of why you wanted a dedicated forum (call it whatever you like) were mostly subjective. When you took your marbles and left, did you have all your posts and threads removed too? If not, the thread is still here for all to see.

But that's all water under the bridge.

Have you not noticed that a lot of "outsiders" seem to be confused by your posts and/or approach? Do you think it's more likely that everyone else has the problem, or perhaps it's you?

 

[guitarmike]

I figured $500 was a fair price for a working design to my specs.

This is from the same guy that is offering me a road case for a Marshall superlead head for $325. Wow.....