Help getting the specific 'grind' in these old clips?

[Lurchhammer]

@ TS: would "purring" describe what you mean ?

Giga


Edit: you could ask Michael RT: his clips in this thread also "purr" ; viewtopic.php?f=3&t=129528

Yes, you could describe it as purrr'ing, or more aggressively I would say Grrrrrrrr'ing where the r's are like sawblades. That guys amp sounds great, but I don't hear the effect as pronounced as in the videos above. It's getting there, like VHalen I on Running with the Devil is almost there and has a Purrrr to it.

 

[petejt]

I've been trying to get a very specific element of this 'Rockman type of saw/grind/buzz/grit/clipping' whatever you call it to add to my sound. Can anyone tell me what I'm hearing in common of the rhythm guitars in these clips? They all have a specific chainsaw type of distortion/grit in common that is very unique and not smooth- very aggressive! Almost like a solid-state type of clipping or effect. Is it a Rockman, an effect like a stuck-chorus, or a pitch harmonizer +/- 12 cents, or maybe even 2 tracks just a few millisec delayed? Maybe it's something the studio added not even in the guitar tone? I know pushed plexi's are probably the base foundation of the sound, but what I'm looking for is that specific extra 'sizzle/frying' sound that's in these clips. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated!!!


..........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZBExczoGc 0:05 through 0:25 (*Bonus! check out 3:20 to 4:15, it sounds exactly like old Yngwie like in Steeler!)

I've just listened to these again, particularly the last one of King Diamond's Shrine (didn't load on YouTube as it was removed, but I have that album so just listened to that ).

I can definitely hear what you mean- I hear it as a trilling sound- like rolling your tongue- really fast flickering sound. Basically a chainsaw fast rattle sound or like the deep rippling of an angry dog growling...(0:05-0:15).

I hear what you mean by referring to the Rockman- you can hear that rippling effect on some old 80s stuff e.g. the soundtrack of the classic 'montage' sequence from Scarface.

I gotta try again to get this rippling type of sound. Will see how I go over the next week.

 

[petejt]

It sounds to me like these songs employ a playing style that could be what you're describing. Imagine playing a bar chord but without the bass note, basically the 5th and the oct. This was a common style in the time as it leaves out the bass note which gives the chord more grind. For example, in the Accept track, you say it got bigger, that's because the bass guitar comes in and hammers on the low E, but the guitar only chugs his low E between the chords, so the bass fills in that low E that we weren't hearing in the guitar

Hmm, that's something I haven't considered before.

 

[Lurchhammer]

It sounds to me like these songs employ a playing style that could be what you're describing. Imagine playing a bar chord but without the bass note, basically the 5th and the oct. This was a common style in the time as it leaves out the bass note which gives the chord more grind. For example, in the Accept track, you say it got bigger, that's because the bass guitar comes in and hammers on the low E, but the guitar only chugs his low E between the chords, so the bass fills in that low E that we weren't hearing in the guitar

Hmm, that's something I haven't considered before.

That does help to make it Prrr, but the amp (or effect) has it all the time. I noticed Scott Splawn alway plays chords like that on his amp clips to try and make that sound, and no offense to him or his amps (they're great!), but they're missing that ingredient I'm looking for. They only have the excellent base/foundation sound like a Plexi, but are missing the frosting.

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

It sounds to me like these songs employ a playing style that could be what you're describing. Imagine playing a bar chord but without the bass note, basically the 5th and the oct. This was a common style in the time as it leaves out the bass note which gives the chord more grind. For example, in the Accept track, you say it got bigger, that's because the bass guitar comes in and hammers on the low E, but the guitar only chugs his low E between the chords, so the bass fills in that low E that we weren't hearing in the guitar

Hmm, that's something I haven't considered before.

That does help to make it Prrr, but the amp (or effect) has it all the time. I noticed Scott Splawn alway plays chords like that on his amp clips to try and make that sound, and no offense to him or his amps (they're great!), but they're missing that ingredient I'm looking for. They only have the excellent base/foundation sound like a Plexi, but are missing the frosting.

I see. The other thing that comes to mind is speaker size. A lot of guys often talk about this or that head for those 70's tones, but in the old school days a lot of stuff was recorded on small amps so they could be cranked without overloading the mic's. Fender champ was a common one for example. It's likely that practice carried over a bit into the 80's. The idea basically is that one speaker won't be as loud as 4 with the same head, so I'm wondering if some of the recordings you like were recorded with a 1x12 or 1x10, rather than a 4x12 cabinet, which would would mean a smaller cabinet, less tubbines, more mid/focus.

 

[petejt]

I see. The other thing that comes to mind is speaker size. A lot of guys often talk about this or that head for those 70's tones, but in the old school days a lot of stuff was recorded on small amps so they could be cranked without overloading the mic's. Fender champ was a common one for example. It's likely that practice carried over a bit into the 80's. The idea basically is that one speaker won't be as loud as 4 with the same head, so I'm wondering if some of the recordings you like were recorded with a 1x12 or 1x10, rather than a 4x12 cabinet, which would would mean a smaller cabinet, less tubbines, more mid/focus.

Or would it be a 1x12 mixed in with a 4x12?


I do think that there is some chorusing/modulation effect going on to enhance that "rippling grind".

If you listen to 10's by Pantera, Dimebag's guitar sound literally ripples with lushness as he hits those open chords.
It's so lush it's like he's playing through Alex Lifeson's rig. I think he's using a rackmount MXR flanger/doubler. But you can also create it with an Electro Harmonix Electric Mistress or a lush warm chorus like a H2O Liquid Chorus & Echo.
It could be that the hotter signal enhances the "up-down-up-down" pitch warbling.

The trick is to not to have too much 'give' in the warble, otherwise it will make it muddy and seasick-sounding.

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

Yes, 10's definitely has some effect on it, I would never venture to guess what exact effect he used but like you suggest a chorus, perhaps phaser, i.e. a time based effect. On a side note this album has some of my favorite Pantera guitar tones, it definitely showed the most creativity on DD's part in terms of tone, even his solos were a little niftier than other albums. The negative side of it was the hearing damage I incurred from the liberal amount of Whammy effect after seeing them a couple times on this tour.

 

[petejt]

Tool's Lateralus came on the media player this afternoon while driving back home, and at the 7:13 mark and onwards I could that distintive grinding "rrrrrollll" trilling song, although it wasn't as pronounced as in King Diamond's Shrine.

That whole song (and particularly at 1:13-1:39) has a beautifully sublime swirling sound on the guitars which I just can't pinpoint.


Is it just a cranked up Marshall that creates that trilling sound when highly distorted?


Yet I can hear an airy but slightly swirly flanger sound on the bass during the quiet parts of the song...

 

[Stone Heavy Sound]

The tones on that recording are phenominal. While I can't pinpoint exactly what kind of chain gets that tone, I can safely say that the richness you hear is from solid double-tracking. The tone sounds very dry otherwise. When guitars are double tracked well and panned hard left and right, you get a nice natural chorus. To demonstrate how important the effect is for rock guitars, sum a track to mono and listen to it, a lot of that magic will be gone.

 

[petejt]

The tones on that recording are phenominal. While I can't pinpoint exactly what kind of chain gets that tone, I can safely say that the richness you hear is from solid double-tracking. The tone sounds very dry otherwise. When guitars are double tracked well and panned hard left and right, you get a nice natural chorus. To demonstrate how important the effect is for rock guitars, sum a track to mono and listen to it, a lot of that magic will be gone.

Thanks man. Sorry it took over a year to reply!

 

[petejt]

I thought of this thread today while listening to Mastodon.


Listen closely to the song Crystal Skull from 1:45min. It's like a rippling thud sound, like a rolling whistle or rolling your tongue (think of a strong Scottish accent).

It's in a different register to the King Diamond stuff, more more lower mids opposed to upper mids. But it is that same "grind". I think the bass adds a lot to that sound- it's like the bass speakers are flapping really fast- but it's not flubby. It's almost on the edge of flubby, but the tightness is retained. It holds together rather that flops about.

 

[FourT6and2]

Yes!

This is the sound I've been chasing. Maybe not as thin and sizzley though. It has the super aggressive upper mid range snarl/grind. Like a trill or purring or fluttering with a sort of smearing sizzle sound on top. For my own personal preferences it would be a bit thicker in the lower mids and less "frying bacon" sound on the highs. But same basic thing. I hear it in the Mastodon clip too.

I hear it a little bit in this clip at the :50 second mark:

https://youtu.be/HANCzu70us4?t=45s

And also speaking of Tool, it's definitely here in this LIVE clip. Starting at 5:45. And when he hits those open D staccato chords at the end of the song, there is serious grind going on:

https://youtu.be/wLVFcfOQz4o?t=5m45s

Amps where I've been able to get a similar sound have been the Ceriatone Chupacabra, Cameron CCV, and maybe my Peters Hydra. But it's harder to do on the Hydra since it's so clear and articulate. I think you need an amp that can get really wet/saturated sounding. The zener/diode clipping in the Chupacabra and CCV definitely help. But the mid-range voicing is definitely "Marshall." The clips in the OP sound like there's a little flange or chorus going on, though. But I think you need that greasy, bright, high-gain saturation from a hot-rodded Marshall-esque amp.

Also, someone mentioned playing style. I find that when I play power chords and skip the root note with my pick and just dig into the A and d strings (and skip the low E), but graze the low E with my thumb, it creates an almost pinch harmonic on top of the chord. It does something similar. Here's a clip of my Chupacabra where I think I do this a little bit in some places.

Bogner 4x12 with Greenbacks.

And here's a Diezel VH4 with some serious aggressive grind. I was using EMG 84 pickup, V30 speakers.

 

[petejt]

You've got that sound happening quite well there.

 

[FourT6and2]

You've got that sound happening quite well there.

lol listening back on that clip of the Chup... kinda wish I still had it. That was a very nice amp. Might have to find another one (maybe a Yeti this time). Leaps and bounds better than the CCV I had. And I think I only paid like $700 for it. Zero noise (listen to the clip, no hum or hiss or anything). Individual bias per tube so you don't have to worry about matching. Build quality was way better too.

 

[petejt]

Here's a way to bump up this thread...

Hank Shermann and Michael Denner from Mercyful Fate recently made a clip of them playing riffs from the 'Don't Break the Oath' album, as they did with the 'Melissa' album to celebrate its 30th Anniversary.

From 5:28 onwards you can clearly hear the thunder-rolling/dog growl rolling 'grind' when they hit those chords hard.

 

[thenine]

wow, thanks for posting that, I didnt know. I looked up the Meissa vid too and watched them all. Super coolio!

 

[LowDesertSludge]

and Skid Row was an ADA MP-1 on Slave to the Grind (best sounding of their albums in my opinion )

This pleases me! Was the ADA modded or can I get close with stock settings

 

[Anonymous]

and Skid Row was an ADA MP-1 on Slave to the Grind (best sounding of their albums in my opinion )

This pleases me! Was the ADA modded or can I get close with stock settings

check here
you might find something useful!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=135694&p=1576769&hilit=wagener#p1576769

 

[petejt]

You can get that type of mid honk if you take a BOSS BF-2 Flanger, set the control on the far left to MAX. All other controls on ZERO. Instant Ronni LeTekro honky midrange!

Is that because setting the Delay Time at 13ms (which is the Maximum value of the Manual knob on the BF-2) causes it to phase cancel the low end, emphasising the upper midrange?

I know that offsetting your signal by a certain amount to "double" it, will cause a comb-filtering affect to accentuate certain frequencies, or phase cancel them. It can give that honk or squawk in the midrange- sometimes cool, sometimes annoying.

I am aware too that a frequency boosted prior to an amp, will cause a harmonic at double its value to be projected further in the signal, e.g. boost 100Hz in front of amp = more 200Hz heard in the signal.


(20ms = 0.02s)

Manual fully clockwise: 1/0.013s = 76.9Hz -> 153.8Hz boosted in later signal.


Is that right?