How to darken/remove shrill from my setup?

[ghosty999]

Speakers and maybe pickups. What speakers are in the cab now?

G12 V20s. This happens with all my guitars accross many pickup configurations.

how old are your tubes?


see if a local GC has a cabinet, ask if you can bring in your rack to try it with a few speaker cabs? A little white lie about looking for a cab, new or used, isn't so bad

EL84 valves replaced and serviced 2024 by Marshall. ADA MP-1 tubes where serviced 2021 I believe. So all pretty recently looked at.

Yeah that's the real question @ghosty999

When you say "shrill" do you mean high mids or do you mean the treble?

Because they are very different things and come from different parts of the rig

I mean a rasp around 5k so high-mids crossing into treble. It's hard to explain without being in the room. It's a frequency that becomes irritating and fatiguing. I can't seem to EQ the amp into that "darker" Mesa-Boogie sound as that rasp is always there. Sorry for lack of explanation. I could record a clip but I'm worried a mic wouldn't

An EQ should've done the trick. Lower those frequencies? Which EQ? An MXR 6 or 10 Band should've squared it up.

I used a 23 band rack mount graphic EQ, I basically flattened the high mids and treble to get rid of it and it still managed to shine through.

What kind of pickups and strings do you use?

What value pots are in your guitar?

What brand of tubes are in your amp?

What kind of cables do you have?

9s, 500k, Mesa power tubes, unknown pre tubes, Fender cables.
This happens across all my guitars with various pickups and string gauges.
the "in the room" sound.

 

[ghosty999]

Absolutely start here. Get that base tone dialed in before you worry about anything else. Then start systematically adding other components back into the signal path.

I've done this and it's the same when run directly into the amp. I've sat for hours adjusting the ADA and EL84 settings with all the FX out of the equation.

 

[DanTravis62]

I mean a rasp around 5k so high-mids crossing into treble. It's hard to explain without being in the room. It's a frequency that becomes irritating and fatiguing. I can't seem to EQ the amp into that "darker" Mesa-Boogie sound as that rasp is always there. Sorry for lack of explanation. I could record a clip but I'm worried a mic wouldn't

if its 5K it most certainly isnt the v30s then

 

[rstites]

I've done this and it's the same when run directly into the amp. I've sat for hours adjusting the ADA and EL84 settings with all the FX out of the equation.

I'd think an EQ would be in order to pull that frequency down. A graphic would allow you to locate and kill the frequency that's annoying you. Any kind of LPF should kill everything above it's cut-off which should remove that frequency - it's at the high end of the V30 frequency response - but of course takes out everything else below it. Dial it in right and it should get that.

If you continue to struggle with that, then I think trying some different speaks to make certain you don't have something with the V30 that's causing it on top of your other equipment.

 

[rstites]

if its 5K it most certainly isnt the v30s then

V30's reach up to 5k. They're starting to roll off by 5k, but it wouldn't have to be too far off that to fall into their highest response range, so I'd think it could be something there. At the very least, they aren't going to block it.

 

[DanTravis62]

V30's reach up to 5k. They're starting to roll off by 5k, but it wouldn't have to be too far off that to fall into their highest response range, so I'd think it could be something there. At the very least, they aren't going to block it.

That isn't the resonant peak, nor is it the midrange spike everyone talks about with V30s

that's way too high

If your argument is simply that they reach 5k - well yeah no shit, so does every other speaker ever made, that's completely irrelevant - there's obviously something else going on that's giving him this super high spike

 

[DanTravis62]

If he was getting like a honk spike at 1.5-3k? Now were talking V30s as the culprit

 

[rstites]

That isn't the resonant peak, nor is it the midrange spike everyone talks about with V30s

that's way too high

If your argument is simply that they reach 5k - well yeah no shit, so does every other speaker ever made, that's completely irrelevant - there's obviously something else going on that's giving him this super high spike

I'm not arguing anything here. I'm simply pointing out that 5k is something that could be a possibility with the speaker. I don't think that's it, but I wouldn't rule it out unless I was in the room and could check it out for myself.

I didn't say anything about midrange spikes because 5k isn't midrange.

 

[DanTravis62]

I'm not arguing anything here. I'm simply pointing out that 5k is something that could be a possibility with the speaker. I don't think that's it, but I wouldn't rule it out unless I was in the room and could check it out for myself.

I didn't say anything about midrange spikes because 5k isn't midrange.

Yes. I'm saying the only way the speaker makes sense as the culprit is IF there was a midrange spike, because that's literally what V30s are famous for having.

If there is a super strong problem frequency up there, changing speakers isn't going to do anything except make him sound like complete shit by using a speaker that has no top end. If the problem frequency was a well known mid range spike in the V30 (there are a couple of them) than swapping speakers would make sense.

It doesn't.

 

[S̷͖͑m̵͎͂á̵̺s̸͚̈́h̴̬̑]

Yes. I'm saying the only way the speaker makes sense as the culprit is IF there was a midrange spike, because that's literally what V30s are famous for having.

If there is a super strong problem frequency up there, changing speakers isn't going to do anything except make him sound like complete shit by using a speaker that has no top end. If the problem frequency was a well known mid range spike in the V30 (there are a couple of them) than swapping speakers would make sense.

It doesn't.

Yeah. Throwing a speaker at a problem could create a new problem that didn't exist while also not fixing origiinal.

There are a lot of suggestions here. But i think addition by subtraction is free and a good way to see.
Someone suggested plugging straight in to see if frequency is still there. That is a pretty great start.

Taking out the sd1 temporarily could be a fast way too.

But no matter what, when you are close to habing the tone you want, identifying the actual problem is the most efficient and cost effective way to get closer to a solution

 

[DanTravis62]

 

[DanTravis62]

Yeah. Throwing a speaker at a problem could create a new problem that didn't exist while also not fixing origiinal.

There are a lot of suggestions here. But i think addition by subtraction is free and a good way to see.
Someone suggested plugging straight in to see if frequency is still there. That is a pretty great start.

Taking out the sd1 temporarily could be a fast way too.

But no matter what, when you are close to habing the tone you want, identifying the actual problem is the most efficient and cost effective way to get closer to a solution

if he said his problem frequency was low mid mud at 200-500 hz, or honk between 2 and 3k, okay, maybe he's talking about the vintage 30


But if he's self describing it at like 5k, than that means it's most likely something else in his rig.

Recommending a different speaker is always everyone's go to, but in this case it's probably going to waste OPs money and BEST case scenario just hide or mask the actual issue hes having

 

[rstites]

Yes. I'm saying the only way the speaker makes sense as the culprit is IF there was a midrange spike, because that's literally what V30s are famous for having.

If there is a super strong problem frequency up there, changing speakers isn't going to do anything except make him sound like complete shit by using a speaker that has no top end. If the problem frequency was a well known mid range spike in the V30 (there are a couple of them) than swapping speakers would make sense.

It doesn't.

We're talking past each other, I suspect. An annoying midrange spike with a V30 is the speaker working as intended and you don't like it. That's a candidate for a speaker change. A 5k buzz would be something wrong with the speaker. I wouldn't randomly swap speakers. I'd just try to a different cab if I had one available to check things. It's a simple solution to eliminate one variable.

I strongly suspect it's earlier in the chain but this is the simplest thing to check......granted not possible if you don't have another cab/speaker anywhere around.

I'd also pull from the preamp direct and check it out to eliminate that. After that, I'd tackle the power amp. There's only four possible things to check at this point: guitar, preamp, power amp, cab. Check each and eliminate it. (I'm guessing power amp, but it's the hardest to isolate, so you have to check everything else.)

 

[rstites]

Recommending a different speaker is always everyone's go to, but in this case it's probably going to waste OPs money and BEST case scenario just hide or mask the actual issue hes having

Let's be clear here: I never recommended a different speaker or swapping them, and never said anything about my personal preferences. I noted that I wouldn't eliminate the speaker out of hand without checking it. You read something different into my post than I intended. It's cool. Miscommunication drives forum discussion.

 

[DanTravis62]

We're talking past each other, I suspect. An annoying midrange spike with a V30 is the speaker working as intended and you don't like it. That's a candidate for a speaker change. A 5k buzz would be something wrong with the speaker. I wouldn't randomly swap speakers. I'd just try to a different cab if I had one available to check things. It's a simple solution to eliminate one variable.

I strongly suspect it's earlier in the chain but this is the simplest thing to check......granted not possible if you don't have another cab/speaker anywhere around.

I'd also pull from the preamp direct and check it out to eliminate that. After that, I'd tackle the power amp. There's only four possible things to check at this point: guitar, preamp, power amp, cab. Check each and eliminate it. (I'm guessing power amp, but it's the hardest to isolate, so you have to check everything else.)

That makes more sense, all of the responses above from people are saying "change/swap your speakers to (__whatever speaker I like__)" and that is completely unhelpful, is what I was getting at

A fault on one of the speakers is certainly possible, and worth testing

But it's obnoxious how everyone's immediate, first reaction is always "try k100s" or "try redbacks" etc - instead of trying to solve the actual issue, the advice is always "you should try what I like because that validates my personal preferences"

Let's be clear here: I never recommended a different speaker or swapping them, and never said anything about my personal preferences. I noted that I wouldn't eliminate the speaker out of hand without checking it. You read something different into my post than I intended. It's cool. Miscommunication drives forum discussion.

Yeah I got you now.

 

[rstites]

But it's obnoxious how everyone's immediate, first reaction is always "try k100s" or "try redbacks" etc - instead of trying to solve the actual issue, the advice is always "you should try what I like because that validates my personal preferences"

Definitely. I try not to do that. I'll talk about my preferences but prefer to engage with whatever some else wants and help them trouble shoot.

Also, as soon as he mentioned 5k I went into trouble shooting mode because that's something oscillating that shouldn't be.

Yeah I got you now.

It's cool. How do you multiquote in here? Is that a special mod power?

 

[DanTravis62]

Definitely. I try not to do that. I'll talk about my preferences but prefer to engage with whatever some else wants and help them trouble shoot.

Also, as soon as he mentioned 5k I went into trouble shooting mode because that's something oscillating that shouldn't be.



It's cool. How do you multiquote in here? Is that a special mod power?

No not at all, just reply multiple times and it will automatically add the quote to the box.

 

[Nigel]

G12 V20s. This happens with all my guitars accross many pickup configurations.


EL84 valves replaced and serviced 2024 by Marshall. ADA MP-1 tubes where serviced 2021 I believe. So all pretty recently looked at.


I mean a rasp around 5k so high-mids crossing into treble. It's hard to explain without being in the room. It's a frequency that becomes irritating and fatiguing. I can't seem to EQ the amp into that "darker" Mesa-Boogie sound as that rasp is always there. Sorry for lack of explanation. I could record a clip but I'm worried a mic wouldn't

I used a 23 band rack mount graphic EQ, I basically flattened the high mids and treble to get rid of it and it still managed to shine through.

9s, 500k, Mesa power tubes, unknown pre tubes, Fender cables.
This happens across all my guitars with various pickups and string gauges.
the "in the room" sound.

Try pure nickel strings, D'Addario or Fender, in that order. That's the cheapest and easiest way to address harshness. Steel strings, even nickel coated ones, produce harsh treble, period. Pure nickel does not. Ask EVH!

Next, go to Michael's and get 20 oz. of polyfil and put it in your 2x12 cabinet. That will tame the harshness of the speaker's rear wave being reflected back through the cone. It will tighten the bass organically and produce a much more musical sound.

Past that, look at reflections in your room.

If your Mesa tubes are Russian or Chinese, consider getting JJ's. Nickel strings will likely make this a non-issue though. New production Russian and Chinese glass can exacerbate steel string harshness.

For power tubes, OG Russian military 6n14n's with NO SUFFIX like -EV or what have you are the finest EL84's for the money, and most durable. See Dr. Z and Tranwreck. They can be had cheap too.

Furthermore, if any of your guitars are using SD JB's in the bridge, they need to see 250K pots and about 125K total load to bleed off the proper amount of high end to ground. 250K total makes JB's and Screamin' Demons and the like super harsh in my experience.

I'd also rip out the cheap ass Marshall wiring and use some good thick wire in the cab too after the above was done just for added girth and enhanced speaker dampening. 10 gauge sounds more open, ask Reinhold Bogner!

Let us know how the experimenting goes!

 

[Nigel]

G12 V20s. This happens with all my guitars accross many pickup configurations.


EL84 valves replaced and serviced 2024 by Marshall. ADA MP-1 tubes where serviced 2021 I believe. So all pretty recently looked at.


I mean a rasp around 5k so high-mids crossing into treble. It's hard to explain without being in the room. It's a frequency that becomes irritating and fatiguing. I can't seem to EQ the amp into that "darker" Mesa-Boogie sound as that rasp is always there. Sorry for lack of explanation. I could record a clip but I'm worried a mic wouldn't

I used a 23 band rack mount graphic EQ, I basically flattened the high mids and treble to get rid of it and it still managed to shine through.

9s, 500k, Mesa power tubes, unknown pre tubes, Fender cables.
This happens across all my guitars with various pickups and string gauges.
the "in the room" sound.

Also, the dark Mesa sound comes from their proprietary vintage 30’s. You need a Mesa cab for that, or replace your 16 ohm Marshall Vintages.

8 ohm speakers are easier on the ears in terms of upper middle and treble as well.

Get a couple of Mesa T4335’s and wire ‘em series for 16 ohms for the least expensive and highest value incarnation of a 2x12 with smooth top.

 

[valve]

only read the first page.
@Hiwatts-n-Gibsons and @anomaly are correct. the marshall labeled G12 Vintage are quite a bit brighter than your regular V30.
even with Diezels they get pretty shrill easily. Don't like them for hiGain. clean and light crunch they are actually better!