ejecta
Active member
This totally sucks SR and I hope you are able to put the screws to this pile of shit. I totally get you wanting to get the local authorities involved.... I'd be doing the same thing.
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J
jcj
Well-known member
I had a guitar listed on ebay and Reverb, and pulled my ad, due to this whole ordeal. The potential for it going poorly seems just too high, these days. Sad.
Scumback Speakers
Well-known member
Thanks for all the posts, but frankly I hate thieves, and con artists, which this Cam/Kam/Royal Brit clearly is. Carl/Fusonbear was totally unaware of any of this until I contacted him.
Cam told him he rented a Bogner Helios from a local studio to try out, an outright lie, as we all know now. What's funnier is that Bogner is in North Hollywood, and it's a 15-20 minuted drive from this guy's house somewhere in West LA/Brentwood area. He could have tried one out there. My gut reaction is that he must have screwed Bogner over at some point so that he's not welcome there, and that's why he went through this elaborate ruse to try out an amp. The worst part is that he contacted Carl first to discuss this amp, and even after Carl told him it wasn't the same as his old holy grail Plexi's (which he has a few of from what I know), he elected to pull this scam just to try it out, and as is obvious now, never had any intention of buying it, since he was informed of it BEFORE he bought it from SR.
Carl had done work for this guy in the past on his own amps, but he was totally unaware of this scam until I contacted him. So it's impossible to blame Carl for finding out about it AFTER THE FACT. But he came clean with what he knew after I informed him of this mess, and he called SR to straighten it out himself.
So, it's basically this:
1) Scammer buys an amp, gets found out he wasn't sincere about buying it.
2) Local people in the scene (Carl, myself) figure it out, and put 2 + 2 together, contact seller.
3) I step up and initiate some things to rectify SR's problem, Carl steps up and clarifies the details.
4) Apparently, and you can all pat yourself on the back for this as RT members, Cam's Scams are uncovered and he's now having a problem with his reputation.
Summary: Boohoo sCAM, don't be a scamming jerk and you won't have to answer to being one by your peers and others online who are aware of your crap.
Hopefully that clears up all the other unstated details. Frankly, if I knew where this guy lived, I'd turn him into the LA police, or some other law enforcement entity.
Cam's next step would be to send SR the shipping costs, plus a nice "I'm a dickhead buyer" bonus fee for his trouble, and disappear off the net. But that's just my viewpoint, I've got dinosaur outdated values, and I know it.
Cam told him he rented a Bogner Helios from a local studio to try out, an outright lie, as we all know now. What's funnier is that Bogner is in North Hollywood, and it's a 15-20 minuted drive from this guy's house somewhere in West LA/Brentwood area. He could have tried one out there. My gut reaction is that he must have screwed Bogner over at some point so that he's not welcome there, and that's why he went through this elaborate ruse to try out an amp. The worst part is that he contacted Carl first to discuss this amp, and even after Carl told him it wasn't the same as his old holy grail Plexi's (which he has a few of from what I know), he elected to pull this scam just to try it out, and as is obvious now, never had any intention of buying it, since he was informed of it BEFORE he bought it from SR.
Carl had done work for this guy in the past on his own amps, but he was totally unaware of this scam until I contacted him. So it's impossible to blame Carl for finding out about it AFTER THE FACT. But he came clean with what he knew after I informed him of this mess, and he called SR to straighten it out himself.
So, it's basically this:
1) Scammer buys an amp, gets found out he wasn't sincere about buying it.
2) Local people in the scene (Carl, myself) figure it out, and put 2 + 2 together, contact seller.
3) I step up and initiate some things to rectify SR's problem, Carl steps up and clarifies the details.
4) Apparently, and you can all pat yourself on the back for this as RT members, Cam's Scams are uncovered and he's now having a problem with his reputation.
Summary: Boohoo sCAM, don't be a scamming jerk and you won't have to answer to being one by your peers and others online who are aware of your crap.
Hopefully that clears up all the other unstated details. Frankly, if I knew where this guy lived, I'd turn him into the LA police, or some other law enforcement entity.
Cam's next step would be to send SR the shipping costs, plus a nice "I'm a dickhead buyer" bonus fee for his trouble, and disappear off the net. But that's just my viewpoint, I've got dinosaur outdated values, and I know it.
Starman22
New member
The preceding post by Sc Speakers now make sense out of all of this debacle for me personally. I couldn't wrap my brain around why exactly the whacky Iraqi was trying to 180* the amp so fast. Long distant demo on a sellers dime? Pretty fucking low and underhanded. Oh well that was my take with 75% of the people in LA when I lived there so I'm not surprised., bunch of mutant azzholes.
Speeddemon
Well-known member
Oh, you're not alone there. I'm in my 30ies and sometimes feel old about 'where did all the common decency go' stuff that's clashing with my values as well.Scumback Speakers":19dldawx said:
How hard is it to NOT be a dick?
If this Cam guy lives in a 1.2 mil house in West LA, why bother with $2k amp scams if the end result is your name being forever tarnished on the web?
SavageRiffer
Banned
New member
Scumback Speakers":2dp1cdwo said:
The way I understood it was he wanted to either have it modded or to figure out how to use parts from it. That makes a lot more sense to me since the guy apparently has a history of selling phony vintage Marshall plexis. It doesn't make sense to pay $2000 for an amp just to use it for a while because if anyone at Paypal even paid attention to the evidence or gave a shit, it would be a chance he wouldn't get his money back. He must have had some kind of ulterior motive.
He 's apparently used amp techs before to swap parts in amps and pass them off on the net. That's probably why he went fishing to Carl's shop to see what he could do. I'm not going to assume that he only visited Carl's shop. It's like he had it all planned out before the transaction because all of the sudden, 3 days in transit, he started making excuses and demanding a refund. I think he just wanted to get the process started early. He also held on to my amp way too long.
What this tells me is that this guy had bigger plans. Maybe the vintage plexi thing was fizzling out for him and he wanted to take that scam in a new direction with big-name commercial brands. Who knows, but I've had experiences with buyers who got cold feet and they never do this stuff until after the gear arrives. They're always curious to see if they're going to be pleasantly surprised when they get it, but this guy started his shit way too prematurely. This tells me that he had some plans.
Besides, it makes no sense that he'd go to an amp tech he's worked with many times before and knows on a personal level, just to tell him he's "renting" an amp. There is something missing from that story. I don't know yet what is missing, but I have my suspicions. We will find out today because the amp is set to be delivered. I will provide gut shots to Bogner for analysis, and if necessary, here for the forum experts. Bogner will know their parts and wiring best, so if anything is off, they'll catch on to it.
Even if my amp comes back unscathed, I will not stop my legal case. Kamran Kavian is like a pervert who fondles a school girl on the subway and walks away thinking there's no harm if he didn't penetrate. No, that fucker is going to jail. Someone sooner or later is going to piece together the evidence and connect all the dots on his trail. You don't pull scams for so many years and not leave plenty of breadcrumbs laying around. I believe that he's done too much to cover his tracks completely even if he tried. One day, I will visit that son of a bitch in prison and say "Whose getting it in the rear now?"
R
Racerxrated
Well-known member
Someone seriously needs to buy one of his rigs and turn the tables. THAT would be fun.
GOHOINC
Well-known member
I'm not sticking up for the bad guy, I'm on SR's side here in that this is f'd up and wrong and it sucks that he's had to deal with it. That being said, you get your amp back, it's over... You're out the shipping money and that blows but that's the way the cookie crumbles. What criminal activity occurred here that you think there is merit for pursuing police investigation? The short and skinny is that a shitbag purchased an item, for whatever reason he decided he didn't want it and took whatever steps he could to get his money back. Shitbag then takes a while to ship the amp back which would certainly make this situation worse but as long as you get your amp back with no new damage,missing parts etc. then nothing illegal has happened. Its just a shitty shady dude backing out of a transaction. Much worse happens every minute of every day with much more severe consequences for people. Police need to focus on real problems...
If anything you could pursue small claims court for some monetary damages but aside from the shipping cost, what monetary damages can you prove in court? This isn't worth your time or the headaches any longer. Again, sorry this happened to you no one enjoys a deal gone south. I would call reverb and make a case for them to cover the return shipping and call it a day.
If anything you could pursue small claims court for some monetary damages but aside from the shipping cost, what monetary damages can you prove in court? This isn't worth your time or the headaches any longer. Again, sorry this happened to you no one enjoys a deal gone south. I would call reverb and make a case for them to cover the return shipping and call it a day.
Rick Lee
Well-known member
No doubt this scumbag has engaged in plenty of illegal shenanigans. But I doubt anyone other than a real victim, who was never close to made whole again, would be able to convince law enforcement to do something about it. If you have a friend who's a cop, or maybe a pitbull of a lawyer buddy, you might be able to scare him straight. But I can't see anyone really opening an investigation to find all the people this scumbag has screwed and the details of each case.
SavageRiffer
Banned
New member
We will see what kind of crime has been committed when I receive the amplifier back. GOHOINC, sorry but maybe to you it's OK, but I don't let people walk on me. I won't let it go, and I won't forget, and sooner or later, I'll catch him with his hands in the cookie jar. Indeed there is a crime here. Paypal is taking shipping out of MY POCKET. I have to relist my amp, and all the buyers who were contacting me with offers are gone now, so I have to start from scratch. I don't know what the guy did with my amp, and I doubt it will come back working properly, so before you know the facts, don't assume that this was nothing meaningful. This is complete bullshit and I won't stand for it. I will show up at someone's door before I let ANYONE fuck me over. When YOU are in the situation and at the mercy of a fraud and Paypal, you see things differently, and whatever offense that looks minor from the outside, has greater effect than you understand from an outside point of view.
A lot of people on this forum and others have been in a similar situation, so they don't say shit like that because they know how it screws people up when these things happen. Think about it man. I lost all of my potential sales, am $60 in the hole on shipping, and my amp has been in that fucker's hands for 3 weeks. How long do you think it's going to take to recover to the point I would have been if an honest buyer paid me? That's no small matter. This sets me back several weeks and potentially could receive a damaged or modified amplifier. So don't sit there and play it down like "Oh well, he returned the amp so sticks and stones..." Moreover, the guy fucks it up for everyone buying and selling gear. This isn't some small little matter here. It's a crime against an entire worldwide community of musicians and enthusiasts honestly trying to buy/sell/trade.
Maybe YOU don't take it that seriously, but we've already seen the damage caused to the entire gear trade because of punks like this. You have some professionals on this very forum testifying to the fact that this son of a bitch Kamran Kavian has been ripping people off for years, and he's STILL getting away with it with the help of Paypal, etc. They themselves have been ripped off by that guy. Right now as we speak, Carl's business is affected by the fraud Kavian.
Therefore, pleas don't minimize this because you're leaving a lot of people out in the cold. What seems to you like nothing to get sore over, amounts to a great deal in the real scope of the situation. You probably didn't even read the thread in full because it's obvious the guy has left a trail of scams behind him.
A lot of people on this forum and others have been in a similar situation, so they don't say shit like that because they know how it screws people up when these things happen. Think about it man. I lost all of my potential sales, am $60 in the hole on shipping, and my amp has been in that fucker's hands for 3 weeks. How long do you think it's going to take to recover to the point I would have been if an honest buyer paid me? That's no small matter. This sets me back several weeks and potentially could receive a damaged or modified amplifier. So don't sit there and play it down like "Oh well, he returned the amp so sticks and stones..." Moreover, the guy fucks it up for everyone buying and selling gear. This isn't some small little matter here. It's a crime against an entire worldwide community of musicians and enthusiasts honestly trying to buy/sell/trade.
Maybe YOU don't take it that seriously, but we've already seen the damage caused to the entire gear trade because of punks like this. You have some professionals on this very forum testifying to the fact that this son of a bitch Kamran Kavian has been ripping people off for years, and he's STILL getting away with it with the help of Paypal, etc. They themselves have been ripped off by that guy. Right now as we speak, Carl's business is affected by the fraud Kavian.
Therefore, pleas don't minimize this because you're leaving a lot of people out in the cold. What seems to you like nothing to get sore over, amounts to a great deal in the real scope of the situation. You probably didn't even read the thread in full because it's obvious the guy has left a trail of scams behind him.
SpiderWars
Well-known member
If true, I can only imagine the slimy shit Skamran did to get that house.Speeddemon":2ypccmw4 said:If this Cam guy lives in a 1.2 mil house in West LA, why bother with $2k amp scams if the end result is your name being forever tarnished on the web?
GOHOINC
Well-known member
SavageRiffer":2knswmyi said:
Dude, it's not ok, but nothing you mention is illegal. Right, wrong or otherwise the guy has conducted himself within the rules of the transactional systems you used. Hes a shitbag and maybe the rules that allow this to happen are shitty but still nothing here is illegal. Even if it comes back not working properly I think you are still fucked, because the guy initiated his return by saying he received it from you not working properly. If it has physical damage, he'll blame shipping company. The bottom line is you got screwed. I feel for you and that sucks but I'm sure and I hope you have more important shit to deal with in life to let this rack your brain.
I'm not assuming anything other than this isn't worth the amount of thought you are putting in to it nor the amount of stress you building up because of it. I wish you all the luck in the world in seeking whatever resolution brings you peace...
EDIT: I have read the entire thread along with the previous thread. ASS-UMP-SHUN... And this has happened to me before so I understand your perspective, which has in turn led to my perspective...
R Weaver FX
Active member
You think he doesn't have all the angles covered for selling too?Racerxrated":1chqeun0 said:
NewWorldMan
Well-known member
I wouldn't take the comments by GOHOINC the wrong way. He's not slighting you, diminishing the situation, or trying to trivialize the ordeal. He's just trying to give an honest assessment and objective opinion. People here are trying to help. From a purely legal and business advice perspective, I agree. As terrible as the situation is, and as big of a PoS that the buyer and all like him are, there's not much legal recourse here you can pursue. I doubt any reputable attorney would take the case after an initial consultation.
What would the lawsuit be based on? What exactly are you trying to sue based upon? Yes, he's a douche hole that did you wrong, and there's no one with a half a brain in the guitar community that would side with him...but the guitar community and the legal community are two separate things. The Cliff's Note version (to a lawyer) is that you sold an amp to the guy online. He went through the proper channels and claimed there was an issue. Those proper channels awarded in his favor, and he's returning the amp. Assuming you get the amp back (I know it's in transit), what's the claim here? They've already noted he provided sufficient evidence for a decision.
Even if he swapped out components and such, do you have any definitive proof that the amp wasn't like that before you shipped it? Gut shots, videos, anything to validate the claim? Even if so on that end, what sort of restitution would you be seeking? Any monetary award (shipping fees perhaps?) - which likely wouldn't go in your favor - would probably amount to only 1-2 hours of a lawyer's time. You'd go down the rabbit hole and light a match on stacks of cash. Would he suffer any because of it? No, but then he'd probably threaten slander/libel and cite threads such as this one right here.
No one here is disputing you. You are objectively, 100% correct in the eyes of everyone here. It's messed up, everyone agrees with you without question, and it probably inflames and infuriates every single person who reads the story. But, you have to remember that our barometer isn't the same that the legal community would use.
What would the lawsuit be based on? What exactly are you trying to sue based upon? Yes, he's a douche hole that did you wrong, and there's no one with a half a brain in the guitar community that would side with him...but the guitar community and the legal community are two separate things. The Cliff's Note version (to a lawyer) is that you sold an amp to the guy online. He went through the proper channels and claimed there was an issue. Those proper channels awarded in his favor, and he's returning the amp. Assuming you get the amp back (I know it's in transit), what's the claim here? They've already noted he provided sufficient evidence for a decision.
Even if he swapped out components and such, do you have any definitive proof that the amp wasn't like that before you shipped it? Gut shots, videos, anything to validate the claim? Even if so on that end, what sort of restitution would you be seeking? Any monetary award (shipping fees perhaps?) - which likely wouldn't go in your favor - would probably amount to only 1-2 hours of a lawyer's time. You'd go down the rabbit hole and light a match on stacks of cash. Would he suffer any because of it? No, but then he'd probably threaten slander/libel and cite threads such as this one right here.
No one here is disputing you. You are objectively, 100% correct in the eyes of everyone here. It's messed up, everyone agrees with you without question, and it probably inflames and infuriates every single person who reads the story. But, you have to remember that our barometer isn't the same that the legal community would use.
SavageRiffer
Banned
New member
NewWorldMan":3e2gj7du said:
What makes you think I don't know anything about the law. You think I'm trying to make a lawsuit? Sorry, but that's not what I'm after. This is a criminal investigation and it's the cops who will come after him, not some stupid, go-nowhere lawsuit. From what I've been able to uncover so far, he's involved in a lot more than just amp scams; and it isn't only him whose involved in all their dealings. That's all I'm going to say right now. One day you will see.
GOHOINC
Well-known member
NewWorldMan":2esbp5cr said:
Precisely, and thank you..
SpiderWars
Well-known member
I can see what you guys are saying but I applaud SR for wanting to out this POS to the authorities. So many would take the easy way and just let him slide. Maybe they don't find anything worth pursuing but he's now on their radar screen. Even if it just makes his scams harder to pull off is a good thing imo.
NewWorldMan
Well-known member
SavageRiffer":dvncn6ue said:
No one ever stated that anyone here believes you have no knowledge of laws and such. That's a baseless assumption. If you and others attempt to push other means of action, I applaud you, and I wish you luck. I was noting that a lawsuit in regards to this transaction would be a waste of time and money.
MrDowntown
Well-known member
Hopeful your amp makes it no worse for the wear!
GOHOINC
Well-known member
MrDowntown":22jmjt28 said:
As long as he gets his amp back, there is nothing here criminally. Now if he gets a box of rocks back that would be a different story.
I try to think of it this way. Amazon/Best Buy, online retailers deal with this ("returns") on a minute by minute basis. For us it stings a lot more because none of us consider ourselves "retailers" but that is exactly what we are doing. Aside from the fact we don't collect or pay taxes on these transactions, this is the retail market for second hand instruments. If we forget the fact that SR listed the amp as AS-IS, no returns, how is this any different from someone buying something from any online retailer and deciding for whatever reason that they want to return it? Even if they lie about the reason why they want to return it, how is this different? Because of the inside information about the other shady dealings this guy engages in? While that certainly speaks to the guy's character, that still means almost nothing from a criminal and even civil standpoint, assuming SR gets the amp. We all want to see the best outcome possibly left for SR but there doesn't appear to be an outcome here that could be considered "good" by our standards. Even if SR tracks him down and puts a savage thrashing on him, that will only end with assault charges, possible civil suit etc... maybe its worth it?
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