I Just Got Fucked By Paypal AND Reverb Big Time UPDATED

[Rick Lee]

Mrs. Lee does about $30k a year in eBay sales, mostly women's apparel and accessories. About once a week she gets hit with a return by someone who basically wanted to rent the item for an event. She is never not involved in disputes with buyers, eBay or PayPal. Every morning before she heads to work, she's busy taking photos of stuff in natural light on a clear background so as to make for good item descriptions and conditions. The BS excuses she gets for the returns are legion. And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes. She never sells anything as expensive as a Bogner, but it's still a huge pain in the butt to deal with so often.

 

[phil b]

POS scammer, who deserves at a minimum, a severe oldschool-countryboy-ass whippin...which ends with him bleeding, drooling and shitting himself. That said...and I'm NO expert on law/mail fraud...but trying to scheme someone out of their goods/services whilst using wire/mail is a crime. I realize there is a ton of proof of this and that kind-of shit, but IMO the guy is at a minimum using shipping services/companies to help him scheme/scam folks. I agree with both sides...m'fer needs to be dealt with, but i also understand the adage of wrestling pigs in mud.

Hopeful your amp makes it no worse for the wear!

As long as he gets his amp back, there is nothing here criminally. Now if he gets a box of rocks back that would be a different story.

I try to think of it this way. Amazon/Best Buy, online retailers deal with this ("returns") on a minute by minute basis. For us it stings a lot more because none of us consider ourselves "retailers" but that is exactly what we are doing. Aside from the fact we don't collect or pay taxes on these transactions, this is the retail market for second hand instruments. If we forget the fact that SR listed the amp as AS-IS, no returns, how is this any different from someone buying something from any online retailer and deciding for whatever reason that they want to return it? Even if they lie about the reason why they want to return it, how is this different? Because of the inside information about the other shady dealings this guy engages in? While that certainly speaks to the guy's character, that still means almost nothing from a criminal and even civil standpoint, assuming SR gets the amp. We all want to see the best outcome possibly left for SR but there doesn't appear to be an outcome here that could be considered "good" by our standards. Even if SR tracks him down and puts a savage thrashing on him, that will only end with assault charges, possible civil suit etc... maybe its worth it?

This goes back to Paypal. You agree to all these ridiculous terms when you use their service and thats where it stops. Even though OP didnt agree to pay shipping back, PP made that decision and when you use their service you agree to abide by their arbitration. Reverb cant do shit because PP can override them. Reverb should step up and refund him the shipping charges because after all, its their service he used for selling and they had plenty of info that this guy was a flake buyer. That would be cool, but they are not obliged by any means. This shit with PP has been going on for a long time... People even started class actions against them. If amp comes back unscathed then its pointless to have an investigation into this transaction, BUT, if the buyers other dealings were outside of the terms of PP or whatever then it may be worth pursuing. On this transaction this buyer basically pulled a legal scam under Paypal..... Buying, trying and returning all on the sellers dime. Its Legal. FUCK PAYPAL..!!

 

[maddnotez]

You know I hate to say it but GOHONIC and Newworldman are right. There is nothing you will be able to do. No lawyer would look at this and no police officer will do anything about this.

If you have it shipped to a UPS and open it there, with witnesses and on video then maybe if it is a box of rocks you could do something but even then. This is small potatoes.

The best you can do is hope the amp comes back in the same condition.

Like they say, we all agree with you here. It is BS and you should definitely out the guy and the others if there is more to it. Maybe if they have some huge scam operation and there is proof then something MIGHT come of it.

The legal system sucks man but it is what it is. I had an employer not pay me, went to the State. Had the meeting. There were 12 others there he did the same thing to. Of course he didnt show. We were all awarded our money....That was in 1998 and I have not seen a dime.

 

[stephen sawall]

What name is he using at TGP ?

 

[crankyrayhanky]

Sue Everybody

 

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't take the comments by GOHOINC the wrong way. He's not slighting you, diminishing the situation, or trying to trivialize the ordeal. He's just trying to give an honest assessment and objective opinion. People here are trying to help. From a purely legal and business advice perspective, I agree. As terrible as the situation is, and as big of a PoS that the buyer and all like him are, there's not much legal recourse here you can pursue. I doubt any reputable attorney would take the case after an initial consultation.

What would the lawsuit be based on? What exactly are you trying to sue based upon? Yes, he's a douche hole that did you wrong, and there's no one with a half a brain in the guitar community that would side with him...but the guitar community and the legal community are two separate things. The Cliff's Note version (to a lawyer) is that you sold an amp to the guy online. He went through the proper channels and claimed there was an issue. Those proper channels awarded in his favor, and he's returning the amp. Assuming you get the amp back (I know it's in transit), what's the claim here? They've already noted he provided sufficient evidence for a decision.

Even if he swapped out components and such, do you have any definitive proof that the amp wasn't like that before you shipped it? Gut shots, videos, anything to validate the claim? Even if so on that end, what sort of restitution would you be seeking? Any monetary award (shipping fees perhaps?) - which likely wouldn't go in your favor - would probably amount to only 1-2 hours of a lawyer's time. You'd go down the rabbit hole and light a match on stacks of cash. Would he suffer any because of it? No, but then he'd probably threaten slander/libel and cite threads such as this one right here.

No one here is disputing you. You are objectively, 100% correct in the eyes of everyone here. It's messed up, everyone agrees with you without question, and it probably inflames and infuriates every single person who reads the story. But, you have to remember that our barometer isn't the same that the legal community would use.

What makes you think I don't know anything about the law. You think I'm trying to make a lawsuit? Sorry, but that's not what I'm after. This is a criminal investigation and it's the cops who will come after him, not some stupid, go-nowhere lawsuit. From what I've been able to uncover so far, he's involved in a lot more than just amp scams; and it isn't only him whose involved in all their dealings. That's all I'm going to say right now. One day you will see.

What happened to you sucks big time, but what crime do you allege was committed here? It's not like he's gonna admit he just wanted to try it out and return it, right? Unless he ripped parts out of your amp and replaced them, or damaged the amp in some way, or ships you back a box of rocks, I don't see any crime to investigate. He's a raging asshole and I'd be mad as hell too, but barring the stuff I mentioned I fail to see a crime, just a jerk exploiting a flawed system.

SR - I'm truly interested in what you think the crime is? If you say fraud, that he never intended to buy it, no way that is going to be proved. I think you'd just be wasting your time. No crime has been commited yet pending your testing the amp when you receive it. Return shipping coming out of your pocket is a result of the flawed system, not an actual crime.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't take the comments by GOHOINC the wrong way. He's not slighting you, diminishing the situation, or trying to trivialize the ordeal. He's just trying to give an honest assessment and objective opinion. People here are trying to help. From a purely legal and business advice perspective, I agree. As terrible as the situation is, and as big of a PoS that the buyer and all like him are, there's not much legal recourse here you can pursue. I doubt any reputable attorney would take the case after an initial consultation.

What would the lawsuit be based on? What exactly are you trying to sue based upon? Yes, he's a douche hole that did you wrong, and there's no one with a half a brain in the guitar community that would side with him...but the guitar community and the legal community are two separate things. The Cliff's Note version (to a lawyer) is that you sold an amp to the guy online. He went through the proper channels and claimed there was an issue. Those proper channels awarded in his favor, and he's returning the amp. Assuming you get the amp back (I know it's in transit), what's the claim here? They've already noted he provided sufficient evidence for a decision.

Even if he swapped out components and such, do you have any definitive proof that the amp wasn't like that before you shipped it? Gut shots, videos, anything to validate the claim? Even if so on that end, what sort of restitution would you be seeking? Any monetary award (shipping fees perhaps?) - which likely wouldn't go in your favor - would probably amount to only 1-2 hours of a lawyer's time. You'd go down the rabbit hole and light a match on stacks of cash. Would he suffer any because of it? No, but then he'd probably threaten slander/libel and cite threads such as this one right here.

No one here is disputing you. You are objectively, 100% correct in the eyes of everyone here. It's messed up, everyone agrees with you without question, and it probably inflames and infuriates every single person who reads the story. But, you have to remember that our barometer isn't the same that the legal community would use.

Said it much better than I did!

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

POS scammer, who deserves at a minimum, a severe oldschool-countryboy-ass whippin...which ends with him bleeding, drooling and shitting himself. That said...and I'm NO expert on law/mail fraud...but trying to scheme someone out of their goods/services whilst using wire/mail is a crime. I realize there is a ton of proof of this and that kind-of shit, but IMO the guy is at a minimum using shipping services/companies to help him scheme/scam folks. I agree with both sides...m'fer needs to be dealt with, but i also understand the adage of wrestling pigs in mud.

Hopeful your amp makes it no worse for the wear!

As long as he gets his amp back, there is nothing here criminally. Now if he gets a box of rocks back that would be a different story.

I try to think of it this way. Amazon/Best Buy, online retailers deal with this ("returns") on a minute by minute basis. For us it stings a lot more because none of us consider ourselves "retailers" but that is exactly what we are doing. Aside from the fact we don't collect or pay taxes on these transactions, this is the retail market for second hand instruments. If we forget the fact that SR listed the amp as AS-IS, no returns, how is this any different from someone buying something from any online retailer and deciding for whatever reason that they want to return it? Even if they lie about the reason why they want to return it, how is this different? Because of the inside information about the other shady dealings this guy engages in? While that certainly speaks to the guy's character, that still means almost nothing from a criminal and even civil standpoint, assuming SR gets the amp. We all want to see the best outcome possibly left for SR but there doesn't appear to be an outcome here that could be considered "good" by our standards. Even if SR tracks him down and puts a savage thrashing on him, that will only end with assault charges, possible civil suit etc... maybe its worth it?

Assuming that amp comes back fine, SR is out $60. You'll spend more trying to get that amount in small claims court. What's the point?

If the amps is damaged, he'll say that is why he sent it back.

Steve

 

[CrazyNutz]

Mrs. Lee does about $30k a year in eBay sales, mostly women's apparel and accessories. About once a week she gets hit with a return by someone who basically wanted to rent the item for an event. She is never not involved in disputes with buyers, eBay or PayPal. Every morning before she heads to work, she's busy taking photos of stuff in natural light on a clear background so as to make for good item descriptions and conditions. The BS excuses she gets for the returns are legion. And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes. She never sells anything as expensive as a Bogner, but it's still a huge pain in the butt to deal with so often.

That's part of doing business, it's Mrs. Lee's responsibility to keep track of her losses, and deductions. You then file those losses with your taxes and your taxable income is adjusted.

 

[Anonymous]

Mrs. Lee does about $30k a year in eBay sales, mostly women's apparel and accessories. About once a week she gets hit with a return by someone who basically wanted to rent the item for an event. She is never not involved in disputes with buyers, eBay or PayPal. Every morning before she heads to work, she's busy taking photos of stuff in natural light on a clear background so as to make for good item descriptions and conditions. The BS excuses she gets for the returns are legion. And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes. She never sells anything as expensive as a Bogner, but it's still a huge pain in the butt to deal with so often.

That's part of doing business, it's Mrs. Lee's responsibility to keep track of her losses, and deductions. You then file those losses with your taxes and your taxable income is adjusted.

Where did he indicate that it wasn't part of doing business? All he said was that all the bullshit returns were a pain in the ass to deal with, which I'm sure they are.

Steve

 

[ed_Sped2]

Assuming that amp comes back fine, SR is out $60. You'll spend more trying to get that amount in small claims court. What's the point?

This is where things get ugly. I get the sense that SR wants to prove a point and see that douchebag get a bit of much deserved comeuppance. I worked in a legal aid shop a long time ago, and the folks that wanted to sue/prosecute to prove a point were the ones that would ultimately throw good money after bad money.

 

[SavageRiffer]

Bogner is taking a look at the gutshots now. The son of a bitch screwed up my footswitch, bent my transformer & chassis, cracked the back plexi panel, and left scuffs. I booted the amp up and it sounded loud and seemed to work, but he may have messed with the bias. I need to hook up my bias meter and see if it's on point. Check out this bullshit:

 

[bgh]

Guys, unless I'm reading something wrong here, I don't think SR's emphasis is so much on this issue by itself. I gather SR is referencing other issues, and other activities the buyer has been involved in. Issues that did not come to light until others became involved in this particular issue - and found out the other things after they did a little leg work. I get the impression Fusionbear found some information that, prior to SR's issue, had not been found. The same seems to be true with Scumback Speakers also.

I cannot speak for SR at all. But, I am going to guess that while he is (rightfully) upset about his particular sale, he is not talking about legal action for his sale, but rather talking about legal action for other indulgences the buyer was involved in.

I may well be wrong. But that's the overall sense I am getting.

 

[Anonymous]

Bogner is taking a look at the gutshots now. The son of a bitch screwed up my footswitch, bent my transformer & chassis, cracked the back plexi panel, and left scuffs. I booted the amp up and it sounded loud and seemed to work, but he may have messed with the bias. I need to hook up my bias meter and see if it's on point. Check out this bullshit:

The bent transformer & chassis are probably shipping damage - I've seen it many times... happened to me with a Metropolous 12000 I sold to RDodson, but MUCH worse and that amp was in my Henning Amps packaging, which is as good or better than what any other amp company is shipping in.. No external damage to the box, either!

I hate this bastard for making you ship this thing twice!

Steve

 

[CrazyNutz]

Mrs. Lee does about $30k a year in eBay sales, mostly women's apparel and accessories. About once a week she gets hit with a return by someone who basically wanted to rent the item for an event. She is never not involved in disputes with buyers, eBay or PayPal. Every morning before she heads to work, she's busy taking photos of stuff in natural light on a clear background so as to make for good item descriptions and conditions. The BS excuses she gets for the returns are legion. And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes. She never sells anything as expensive as a Bogner, but it's still a huge pain in the butt to deal with so often.

That's part of doing business, it's Mrs. Lee's responsibility to keep track of her losses, and deductions. You then file those losses with your taxes and your taxable income is adjusted.

Where did he indicate that it wasn't part of doing business? All he said was that all the bullshit returns were a pain in the ass to deal with, which I'm sure they are.

Steve

Steve, this is what I was commenting on. You're suppose to keep accounting yourself, sounded like they expected paypal to do it.

And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Looks like he played a gig or two with it what a douche, but you got it back that is the good news. As for the transformer that's probably from shipping it took a fall on that side, just grab it and straighten it out.

 

[crankyrayhanky]

That damage blows
Maybe try shipping claim?

 

[Anonymous]

That damage blows
Maybe try shipping claim?

Unless the packaging looks like a freight train ran over it and that was documented, forget it!

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Mrs. Lee does about $30k a year in eBay sales, mostly women's apparel and accessories. About once a week she gets hit with a return by someone who basically wanted to rent the item for an event. She is never not involved in disputes with buyers, eBay or PayPal. Every morning before she heads to work, she's busy taking photos of stuff in natural light on a clear background so as to make for good item descriptions and conditions. The BS excuses she gets for the returns are legion. And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes. She never sells anything as expensive as a Bogner, but it's still a huge pain in the butt to deal with so often.

That's part of doing business, it's Mrs. Lee's responsibility to keep track of her losses, and deductions. You then file those losses with your taxes and your taxable income is adjusted.

Where did he indicate that it wasn't part of doing business? All he said was that all the bullshit returns were a pain in the ass to deal with, which I'm sure they are.

Steve

Steve, this is what I was commenting on. You're suppose to keep accounting yourself, sounded like they expected paypal to do it.

And when she got a 1099 from PayPal two years ago, they didn't back out any of the returns, refunds, exchanges, shipping or PayPal fees. It took a lot of forensic accounting to come up with an accurate profit figure to wash out that income for our taxes.

Gotcha!

Steve

 

[SavageRiffer]

No apparent shipping damage. I think the transformer got like that because he took out the chassis and carried it by the transformer. It's really all minor, but man does it piss me off. As for the foot switch, I have no idea what that funk is at the bottom of the button. Bogner said nothing appears to be changed, but that there might have been an attempted mod, so they want a couple of angles to view the capacitors, etc.