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TheToneDig said:
The 100W amp graveyard is full of 100W amps that turned out to be junk. This isn't a one-way street.

BTW, it is also from the manual. It says it is gig-ready.

https://mesa-boogie.imgix.net/media/User Manuals/070517-MarkFive25.pdf
Quote for quote word the same.

- 4.5 db difference between that amp and the 90W version.

It is no wonder profiler makers and modelers are laughing all the way to make bank. As long as you still have people saying engineers can't get the tone of their 100W amps into lesser wattage than 50W, the model makers will just keep plowing full-on and doing what SOME amp makers say can't be done. This is what Friedman also did with physical amps. Realized he could do what people wanted.

The gimmick is not less wattage. The gimmick is selling you the full whack deal as your only option. It was a monopoly. Like the Soviet Union. You can have any car you want as long as it's brown and a Lada. That is what Friedman caught onto and just did what others said couldn't be done. His range is practically made up of modded Marshalls because of it.

Marshall got wise and made the Studio series because the sub 40W DSL series wasn't cutting it. Guess what? It wasn't more wattage that did it.

Other amp makers did fail with their lesser wattage entries and others did fine, like Friedman. Orange also had quite a bit of success. They are getting even better at it.



100W invented for screaming fans was halved for the studio. 50W versions of the 100W high gain amps for recording. Yes, for recording. Meaning the tones they wanted were there. That's because it is -3db difference. 20W is a -6db difference and all this stuff about the bottom end get cut in the mix. The guitar is a mid-range instrument.

Anyway, your argument works both ways to show why it has problems. If your argument is correct, then a 100W amp and 4x12 is a sub-par tone for any bigger fish coming along and saying their full-stack is better, or 120W or 180W and a wall of sound.

The fact is your argument ends up being a Goldilocks porridge of the only type of setup you need. Not too hot, not too cold, and just the right amount of wattage you need.

My view is very different these days because it's evident that the vast majority of people can't determine the differences in blind tests. The biggest clue that there is something wrong about the 100W only-isms is how it is generally followed up with "video can't demonstrate, so trust your feeling" which points to the whole 100W claim being subjective if you can't even put down a track to get the gains from it you claim are there.
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the line 6 spyder says it is gig ready in the manual.....I am going to buy one now. You poor misguided soul. Even if they could get the tone in a 20watt amp, which they can't, it would be such a plastic version without the punch. just look at 50watt vs 100 watt iterations of the same amp. Always voiced differently. If you change one small thing, the tone change can be huge. I don't know why you want to win this fight so much, but it isn't because we are elitists, it is because we have actually tried shit not fell victim to marketing and misleading post eq adjusted youtube videos
 
TheToneDig said:
The 100W amp graveyard is full of 100W amps that turned out to be junk. This isn't a one-way street.

BTW, it is also from the manual. It says it is gig-ready.

https://mesa-boogie.imgix.net/media/User Manuals/070517-MarkFive25.pdf
Quote for quote word the same.

- 4.5 db difference between that amp and the 90W version.

It is no wonder profiler makers and modelers are laughing all the way to make bank. As long as you still have people saying engineers can't get the tone of their 100W amps into lesser wattage than 50W, the model makers will just keep plowing full-on and doing what SOME amp makers say can't be done. This is what Friedman also did with physical amps. Realized he could do what people wanted.

The gimmick is not less wattage. The gimmick is selling you the full whack deal as your only option. It was a monopoly. Like the Soviet Union. You can have any car you want as long as it's brown and a Lada. That is what Friedman caught onto and just did what others said couldn't be done. His range is practically made up of modded Marshalls because of it.

Marshall got wise and made the Studio series because the sub 40W DSL series wasn't cutting it. Guess what? It wasn't more wattage that did it.

Other amp makers did fail with their lesser wattage entries and others did fine, like Friedman. Orange also had quite a bit of success. They are getting even better at it.



100W invented for screaming fans was halved for the studio. 50W versions of the 100W high gain amps for recording. Yes, for recording. Meaning the tones they wanted were there. That's because it is -3db difference. 20W is a -6db difference and all this stuff about the bottom end get cut in the mix. The guitar is a mid-range instrument.

Anyway, your argument works both ways to show why it has problems. If your argument is correct, then a 100W amp and 4x12 is a sub-par tone for any bigger fish coming along and saying their full-stack is better, or 120W or 180W and a wall of sound.

The fact is your argument ends up being a Goldilocks porridge of the only type of setup you need. Not too hot, not too cold, and just the right amount of wattage you need.

My view is very different these days because it's evident that the vast majority of people can't determine the differences in blind tests. The biggest clue that there is something wrong about the 100W only-isms is how it is generally followed up with "video can't demonstrate, so trust your feeling" which points to the whole 100W claim being subjective if you can't even put down a track to get the gains from it you claim are there.
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You keep quoting a dB reference as if anyone gives a damn. You cannot measure the big character of an audio amplifier in the room. What you can measure outside of noise figure, power over frequency, or linearity in our world is S parameters. However it neither describes what’s discussed or is useful in analogy as it’s a derived metric based on volts or amps at a given impedance which still cannot tell you how an amplifier will audibly sound.

You should come to an ampfest some day and bring your best 20W. There’s inspiration in chest thumping warmth character of the power tubes in the behemoths that no modeler will ever capture in creativity preference in the room. Under a microphone and a modeler in the right hands anything can be made to sound great. But we are not talking recording tones here, we are talking live.
 
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Techdeth said:
Lunch box heads were a way to sell more merchandise easier to me . Less expensive, look like a big amp, and cheaper than axe fix to sway moey to the companies . I mean I’d love to buy a cheaper smaller product than what I have it it was better . They just missing something . I don’t even like 50 watts because they feel different. So

lol I might buy this dudes orange JP2C+ so I can make it look like a browns logo lol
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Yeah. We would all love it if lunchbox heads were as good as the real deal. Who would even bother buying the real amps? The reason that the lunchbox amps don't take off for us is we bring them home and play them next to a real amp, and they sound like a toy. A/B is always more scientific than reading reviews from inexperienced people, or marketing ads from people that probably haven't even played both...However, if you would like your burden of proof to be literature from the company that has everything to gain from you believing drivel...then eventually you are going to write a book to mislead new guitarists. Not YOU, techdeth, but you know who I refer to
 
glpg80 said:
You keep quoting a dB reference as if anyone gives a damn. You cannot measure the big character of an audio amplifier in the room. What you can measure outside of noise figure, power over frequency, or linearity in our world is S parameters. However it neither describes what’s discussed or is useful in analogy as it’s a derived metric based on volts or amps at a given impedance which still cannot tell you how an amplifier will audibly sound.

You should come to an ampfest some day and bring your best 20W. There’s inspiration in chest thumping warmth character of the power tubes in the behemoths that no modeler will ever capture in creativity preference in the room. Under a microphone and a modeler in the right hands anything can be made to sound great. But we are not talking recording tones here, we are talking live.
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I also wonder has he heard the difference between 106 dbs and 112. It is only 6 dbs difference. 6 is a small number.....In the room that 6dbs is a very fucking large number..It is the difference between ear plugs for most people
 
glpg80 said:
You keep quoting a dB reference as if anyone gives a damn. You cannot measure the big character of an audio amplifier in the room. What you can measure outside of noise figure, power over frequency, or linearity in our world is S parameters. However it neither describes what’s discussed or is useful in analogy as it’s a derived metric based on volts or amps at a given impedance which still cannot tell you how an amplifier will audibly sound.

You should come to an ampfest some day and bring your best 20W. There’s inspiration in chest thumping warmth character of the power tubes in the behemoths that no modeler will ever capture in creativity preference in the room. Under a microphone and a modeler in the right hands anything can be made to sound great. But we are not talking recording tones here, we are talking live.
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This is about 100W only-ism and how lower wattage amps can't achieve the same tone. TONE.

Big amps tones are perfectly measurable. Kemper has been doing that for ten years now and other modelers are getting better at it all the time. There is no mystery here. It is science. If big amp makers claim they can't do it in lesser wattage, that's their problem while other amp makers go ahead and do it, which they did and still do.

If you want to talk live, then the 100W is made redundant by the monitoring system running 10,000Watts if not 100,000s of Watts. We are not playing open field Woodstock anymore. So the house system literally beats a full-stack. As soon as your sound goes beyond the first few rows, the house system crushes it. So that ends discussions about bigger wattages right there. FRFR is the biggest of them all. Hence why plenty of bands just bring a Kemper/Axe FX, plugin, and whoosh, the same sound as with their regular gear. John Petrucci gets his live tone from a combo to the side that is mic'd up. The wall of sound behind them isn't the electric guitar tone being shot out over the FRFR.

So it seems you accept that recording tones of the bigger wattages can be done on smaller wattages with the same result because obviously, blind-tests have ended that debate long ago.

No one is saying 20W can match a 100W for loudness live. That's -6dB of a difference can't be beaten. However, a 20W can be louder than the loudest drummer in the room, which is all you need. Certainly, the Marshall Studio series can do that for example. So can the Friedman and so can the Mesa Mark series.

BTW, people claiming FRFR can't do chest thump have never stood in front of an FRFR, period. FRFR cabs for guitar have all the chest thump of a cab, it just isn't as directional. The reason why is because of science. There is literally nothing, nothing at all, in physics that rules out a chest thump from an FRFR cab if played loud enough. Plus raise your cab up on something and the fake bass response vanishes.

All anyone here has to do to find out the truth is go to a guitar store with FRFR and ask to hear guitar through it loudish. That will end any illusions about no chest thump pretty fast. Ask to hear a Marshall Studio while you are at it and the whole 20W not being good enough will also end any illusions.

Basically a heavy band and a guitarist walks in with a 20W Marshall Studio and he will do just fine. The only problem you are faced with is a venue asking you to turn the Marshall down.
 
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VESmedic said:
Don’t even bother. Me and others have destroyed this moron countless times over in another thread, he obviously can’t comprehend anything anyone tells him. Absolutely clueless
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These younger bedroom players just don't have the experience. Are you Experienced?
 
TheToneDig said:
This is about 100W only-ism and how lower wattage amps can't achieve the same tone. TONE.

Big amps tones are perfectly measurable. Kemper has been doing that for ten years now and other modelers are getting better at it all the time. There is no mystery here. It is science. If big amp makers claim they can't do it in lesser wattage, that's their problem while other amp makers go ahead and do it, which they did and still do.

If you want to talk live, then the 100W is made redundant by the monitoring system running 10,000Watts if not 100,000s of Watts. We are not playing open field Woodstock anymore. So the house system literally beats a full-stack. As soon as your sound goes beyond the first few rows, the house system crushes it. So that ends discussions about bigger wattages right there. FRFR is the biggest of them all. Hence why plenty of bands just bring a Kemper/Axe FX, plugin, and whoosh, the same sound as with their regular gear. John Petrucci gets his live tone from a combo to the side that is mic'd up. The wall of sound behind them isn't the electric guitar tone being shot out over the FRFR.

So it seems you accept that recording tones of the bigger wattages can be done on smaller wattages with the same result because obviously, blind-tests have ended that debate long ago.

No one is saying 20W can match a 100W for loudness live. That's -6dB of a difference can't be beaten. However, a 20W can be louder than the loudest drummer in the room, which is all you need. Certainly, the Marshall Studio series can do that for example. So can the Friedman and so can the Mesa Mark series.

BTW, people claiming FRFR can't do chest thump have never stood in front of an FRFR, period. FRFR cabs for guitar have all the chest thump of a cab, it just isn't as directional. The reason why is because of science. There is literally nothing, nothing at all, in physics that rules out a chest thump from an FRFR cab if played loud enough. Plus raise your cab up on something and the fake bass response vanishes.

All anyone here has to do to find out the truth is go to a guitar store with FRFR and ask to hear guitar through it loudish. That will end any illusions about no chest thump pretty fast. Ask to hear a Marshall Studio will you are at it and the whole 20W not being good enough will also end any illusions.

Basically a heavy band and a guitarist walks in with a 20W Marshall Studio and he will do just fine. The only problem you are faced with is a venue asking you to turn the Marshall down.
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I’ve played with drummers that could bust 2 ply heads on command they hit so hard. There’s no 20W anything keeping up with them. Your 100,000W scenario is not realistic, we aren’t talking hypotheticals here. If FRFR is so good why model a 100W tube amp when you could just play a 100W tube amp? Your posts keep getting longer and longer. Seems laughable to me.

I also discussed power tube warmth and tone, FRFR get a lot of shit because tonally they sound very cold and uninspiring. So tell us Mr physics why, in a live scenario and not in a studio, modeling and 20W amps are the next best thing since sliced bread? Just earlier you were calling 100W tube amps dinosaurs, now you’re saying you need FRFR cranked and 100,000W PA systems to keep up with what a 100W tube amp can do tonally and spectrally?
 
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riffsfordaze said:
Is my Gorilla GG-10 amp gig ready? Just wonderin what you cats think. I just want to make sure, I can't find the God Damn manual
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If you play in a metal band you should be golden. Classical music you’ll need to step up your game though. Don’t forget your 20000000000 watt PA.
 
Tru dat! He's a noisy fucker. When I'm feelin Frisky I unplug out of my Camel Lights smokey amp and plug right in to the Gorilla. That shuts him up pretty quickly if ya smell what I'm hearin.
 
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japetus said:
I like how ToneDig lives in a world where every club has a great sounding 10000 or 100000 watt PA. I dare you to take a 15 watt amp on tour in a metal band, not knowing what you will face the next club you go into.
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This works both ways. If you don't know the venue then you don't even know that you will be asked to turn down.

However yes I do live in a world where places for metal gigs have house monitors.

If you want open stadium, no house monitors, then 100W and more is the way to go.

You can bet most people here aren't playing their 100W in those conditions though. Most of them are small gig venues or recording and few of them can actually open up into the sort of dB we are talking about here without becoming physically sick.

If your amp gets it's crunch mostly from the gain channel then you can play at any dB which is why the EVH5150 50W works just fine.

100W for clean is another story. Headroom there is needed but this is about high gain.
 
Geo said:
VH or AC/DC touring in the 80's with 15 watt amps, just no.
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They are not using high gain amps.

Also the amps we are talking about didn't exist back then. In the 80s house monitors were on the rise. Eddies talks about needing to put soundproof over the front of his cabs grills to reduce the volume because of audience discomfort.

Anyway AC/DC tone is very simple to replicate. A 20W SV20h can do it easily. -6dB.
 
Back in the good ol' days we used to have to get creative in the smaller venues. Angling the 4x12 toward the walls or putting a moving blanket over the cab. The sweet spot for me on the old Marshalls was at about noon or 1 o'clock. There was and still is no substitute for that sound.and feel.
 
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