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Geo said:
Back in the good ol' days we used to have to get creative in the smaller venues. Angling the 4x12 toward the walls or putting a moving blanket over the cab. The sweet spot for me on the old Marshalls was at about noon or 1 o'clock. There was and still is no substitute for that sound.and feel.
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I don't know man? Was that in the manual? Are you sure? Whatever you do don't Trust your own ears
 
Smashedguitarist said:
This is a really good point. I mentioned in another post that tone fairies cannot fit into a pcb, which is why handwired amps sound better. But those preamp shield are the antithesis of tone for sure
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This is the most important tip for achieving Grailtone, I know. I did a college thesis on this subject and received a four star award pointing out how removing the tube covers lets the tube "breathe easier" by unmuzzling the glass enclosure.
 
Geo said:
You are just not getting it bro.
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glpg80 said:
I’ve played with drummers that could bust 2 ply heads on command they hit so hard. There’s no 20W anything keeping up with them. Your 100,000W scenario is not realistic, we aren’t talking hypotheticals here. If FRFR is so good why model a 100W tube amp when you could just play a 100W tube amp? Your posts keep getting longer and longer. Seems laughable to me.

I also discussed power tube warmth and tone, FRFR get a lot of shit because tonally they sound very cold and uninspiring. So tell us Mr physics why, in a live scenario and not in a studio, modeling and 20W amps are the next best thing since sliced bread? Just earlier you were calling 100W tube amps dinosaurs, now you’re saying you need FRFR cranked and 100,000W PA systems to keep up with what a 100W tube amp can do tonally and spectrally?
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I have no problem with 100W amps. What I am addressing is 100W-only-ism and 4x12 only-isms for TONE.

A 100W won't keep up with it either in your model.

A regular metal drummer is going between 110dB to 130dB

That 130dB is already over max 100W high gain amp.

So let's go with your drummers hitting at even higher dB because they are special.

That doesn't just end it for 20W. It ends it for 100W also. There is 3dB difference in double wattage. Do you know how many Watts you actually need for the 130dB+ scenario? Doubling is 3dB!

Anyway, the reason why you actually don't need those huge wattage numbers is that the guitar is a mid-range instrument. It isn't competing with the loudest frequencies of the drummer. It just needs to be louder than the mid-range and high-hats.

Most of the people here forwarding 100W-onlyism will eventually be backed into claims about lack of low-end from lower wattage amps and chest thumps. Basically, they have decided they are competing with drummers and the bass player for lower frequencies. Drop A Slipknot. B Standard Machine head. Then claiming their special sound engineers are able to make sure that their low-end is audible and therefore the higher wattage amp paid off. That's how specialized this argument for 100W-only-ism gets with high gain amps.

BTW, I am actually naming amps that can compete here. Marshall Studios. Mesa MK25. Friedman 20s and 30s. Some of those are technically not high-gain amps but can be played high-gain when boosted.
 
If people here said "Hey I use a 100W for the headroom or for more volume" then that would be no argument. It's the claim that lower wattage amps can't replicate the tone of their big brothers that is questionable because some models are doing exactly just that to the point that nobody can tell the difference in a recording and yes, some are indeed gig-ready and able to compete with the loudest drummer in the room. What they don't compete with is.... their bigger brother amps of higher wattage for volume. That's it. Some lower wattage amps are bad. Like some 100W amps are also bad.
 
TheToneDig said:
This is about 100W only-ism and how lower wattage amps can't achieve the same tone. TONE.

Big amps tones are perfectly measurable. Kemper has been doing that for ten years now and other modelers are getting better at it all the time. There is no mystery here. It is science. If big amp makers claim they can't do it in lesser wattage, that's their problem while other amp makers go ahead and do it, which they did and still do.

If you want to talk live, then the 100W is made redundant by the monitoring system running 10,000Watts if not 100,000s of Watts. We are not playing open field Woodstock anymore. So the house system literally beats a full-stack. As soon as your sound goes beyond the first few rows, the house system crushes it. So that ends discussions about bigger wattages right there. FRFR is the biggest of them all. Hence why plenty of bands just bring a Kemper/Axe FX, plugin, and whoosh, the same sound as with their regular gear. John Petrucci gets his live tone from a combo to the side that is mic'd up. The wall of sound behind them isn't the electric guitar tone being shot out over the FRFR.

So it seems you accept that recording tones of the bigger wattages can be done on smaller wattages with the same result because obviously, blind-tests have ended that debate long ago.

No one is saying 20W can match a 100W for loudness live. That's -6dB of a difference can't be beaten. However, a 20W can be louder than the loudest drummer in the room, which is all you need. Certainly, the Marshall Studio series can do that for example. So can the Friedman and so can the Mesa Mark series.

BTW, people claiming FRFR can't do chest thump have never stood in front of an FRFR, period. FRFR cabs for guitar have all the chest thump of a cab, it just isn't as directional. The reason why is because of science. There is literally nothing, nothing at all, in physics that rules out a chest thump from an FRFR cab if played loud enough. Plus raise your cab up on something and the fake bass response vanishes.

All anyone here has to do to find out the truth is go to a guitar store with FRFR and ask to hear guitar through it loudish. That will end any illusions about no chest thump pretty fast. Ask to hear a Marshall Studio will you are at it and the whole 20W not being good enough will also end any illusions.

Basically a heavy band and a guitarist walks in with a 20W Marshall Studio and he will do just fine. The only problem you are faced with is a venue asking you to turn the Marshall down.
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+1000 :thumbsup: It's refreshing to hear from someone who knows.
 
@TheToneDig I noticed you didn't respond to my post. Nobody is turning their 100w amps all the way up. And just to be clear...

Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.



Even with youtube's compression, and even with the volumes NORMALIZED on youtube (so the 100w amps and small amps come through your speakers at the same volume) there are differences between the tone of the amps.

Do the low wattage amps sound good? Some of them do, yep! However, they are DIFFERENT than the 100w amps. This FACT alone means there is a place for 100w amps, and that some peoples' preference for them is perfectly valid, and that the small versions do not replace them. Do the smaller amps provide additionally legitimate options? Sure. Do they replace them? Not a chance.

Would I personally rather gig with a lower wattage amp? Depends. If the gig isn't all that important, sure the smaller one would be easier to carry. But if the gig is important and I want to sound my best? I'm bringing the 100w. Not for volume. For tone. And what about the studio? 100w amps or above. Every time.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
@TheToneDig I noticed you didn't respond to my post. Nobody is turning their 100w amps all the way up. And just to be clear...
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I am not arguing dB either. I am using dB as a reference. I am discussing specifically high gain wattage also because plenty of 12W Tweeds and AC30s get ridiculously loud.

Those videos are shootouts which is fine. I doubt the differences in frequency response is anything other than measurable low-end and headroom though. Except for the Peavey, I didn't bring that small wattage amp because it's not a great reduction effort IMO. Other brands have done better with modeling pressures upon them.

Anyway, they are not blind challenges. The problem here is identifying in a recording if the guitar tone is 100W or a smaller wattage. That is where the rubber meets the road and I don't think anyone can seriously claim they can call it right all the time in a mix. so the argument becomes a live one and chest thumps and all that to which I replied with the house FRFR coverage. This 100W-only-ism stuff is very niche-specific when it comes down to it.
 
TheToneDig said:
I am not arguing dB either. I am using dB as a reference. I am discussing specifically high gain wattage also because plenty of 12W Tweeds and AC30s get ridiculously loud.

Those videos are shootouts which is fine. I doubt the differences in frequency response is anything other than measurable low-end and headroom though. Except for the Peavey, I didn't bring that small wattage amp because it's not a great reduction effort IMO. Other brands have done better with modeling pressures upon them.

Anyway, they are not blind challenges. The problem here is identifying in a recording if the guitar tone is 100W or a smaller wattage. That is where the rubber meets the road and I don't think anyone can seriously claim they can call it right all the time in a mix. so the argument becomes a live one and chest thumps and all that to which I replied with the house FRFR coverage. This 100W-only-ism stuff is very niche-specific when it comes down to it.
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Bro… do you NOT remember your jcm800 video from last week? And all of us laughing at you because of the difference between the 20 watt and 100 watt? And how I was joking I’m offended you think I wouldn’t be able to tell those two ( the 100 watt vs the 20) apart in a blind test? Remember now? GTFOH… you are insanely ignorant if you think we can’t tell which is which in a blind recording.

@DanTravis62 , you’re gonna have a stroke when you read this. He’s now saying the difference is only low end and… wait for it… headroom. I can feel your blood pressure rising from here. Now he admits headroom is a thing, but apparently ISNT that big of a deal.
 
TheGreatGreen said:
@TheToneDig I noticed you didn't respond to my post. Nobody is turning their 100w amps all the way up. And just to be clear...

Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.
Most modern high gain guitar players' preference for 100w amps over low wattage amps has nothing to do with volume.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.




Oh look the small amp doesn't sound the same as the big amp. Total decibel measurements have nothing to do with it.



Even with youtube's compression, and even with the volumes NORMALIZED on youtube (so the 100w amps and small amps come through your speakers at the same volume) there are differences between the tone of the amps.

Do the low wattage amps sound good? Some of them do, yep! However, they are DIFFERENT than the 100w amps. This FACT alone means there is a place for 100w amps, and that some peoples' preference for them is perfectly valid, and that the small versions do not replace them. Do the smaller amps provide additionally legitimate options? Sure. Do they replace them? Not a chance.

Would I personally rather gig with a lower wattage amp? Depends. If the gig isn't all that important, sure the smaller one would be easier to carry. But if the gig is important and I want to sound my best? I'm bringing the 100w. Not for volume. For tone. And what about the studio? 100w amps or above. Every time.
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I am in awe of your patience and the effort you went through to do what i am not willing to do. Rig talk Medal of Honor nominee right here. But unfortunately I feel it will fall on ( obviously) deaf ears.
 
TheToneDig said:
I am not arguing dB either. I am using dB as a reference. I am discussing specifically high gain wattage also because plenty of 12W Tweeds and AC30s get ridiculously loud.

Those videos are shootouts which is fine. I doubt the differences in frequency response is anything other than measurable low-end and headroom though. Except for the Peavey, I didn't bring that small wattage amp because it's not a great reduction effort IMO. Other brands have done better with modeling pressures upon them.

Anyway, they are not blind challenges. The problem here is identifying in a recording if the guitar tone is 100W or a smaller wattage. That is where the rubber meets the road and I don't think anyone can seriously claim they can call it right all the time in a mix. so the argument becomes a live one and chest thumps and all that to which I replied with the house FRFR coverage. This 100W-only-ism stuff is very niche-specific when it comes down to it.
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I think you've hit on the crux of the issue in some ways. I am actually not necessarily saying smaller amps always sound better than bigger amps. What I am saying is that they absolutely are different. And it is precisely that difference that makes large and small amps both viable, unique options. One doesn't negate the other, in either direction.

If we were just talking about solid state home stereos or whatever, then I think I would agree with you that as long as you had the same speakers, the watts wouldn't matter as long as you never approached the limits. A 10 watt home stereo would probably sound the same as a 10,000 watt home stereo as long as the speakers were the same and neither system was outputting more than 10 watts at any time.

However, guitar tube amps are different. Everything matters with them, and it is bafflingly difficult to simply "scale down" a 100w amp into an identical version of itself but simply quieter. When it comes to modern high gain amps, I've played just about all of the "mini" versions of all the larger greats. Mini Recto, EVH LBX, Marshall SV20 and SC20, Peavey 5150 MH, Mesa Mark V 25, Mini Invective, Friedman JJ Jr, Bogner 3534, you name it. I actually like a lot of them for what they are, too. However, none of them, none of them, sound the same as their higher wattage siblings, and it's not just EQ. It's in the response and feel of the amps, the nature of the preamp distortion, the distinct way a 100w poweramp (even when set to low volume) colors the tone in a way that a 15 or 20 watt poweramp simply does not, etc.

I'll also say something else just so you think I'm not biased against small amps altogether. The Matchess DC-30 is 30 watts is one of my all time favorite amps. It's incredible, and it's only 30 watts, and you better believe it can get loud enough to peel paint. However, it's not a modern high gain amp so it doesn't need the girth and hugeness that you can only really get from higher wattage amps.

Do I wish all these mini amps sounded the same as their bigger brothers? Absolutely. Do you know how many more amps I could buy and fit into my studio if the small ones did the job? :D They're less expensive, physically smaller, and lighter. What's not to love? But unfortunately, for me, the proof is in the pudding. Every small version of a larger amp I've tried, for me personally, has sounded different than its bigger brother. And I've tried to make them sound the same. I've put them through reactive loads and applied EQ to the guitar and after the reactive load. It's unfortunately not enough to negate the differences.

Nobody is saying that mini amps are crap. They're not awful. As a matter of fact, in my experience, more often than not they're really good. However, however.... however... however... the 100w versions of those amps are always different in some way besides a simple EQ curve. And that alone means that a guitarist's preference of one over the other is valid and legitimate, because those differences are real and measurable, and the difference is more than can be simply added or subtracted with a parametric EQ.

I'm not even necessarily claiming that the low wattage amps are always better. As a matter of fact I probably couldn't tell in every blind test which amp was the "higher wattage" amp. What I can tell in blind tests, and what most other guitarists with decent monitors could tell, is that more than one amp is being played. I've never heard or played a small wattage amp that sounds identical to its higher wattage version, so there's got to be something to it. That's the only reasonable conclusion I can draw after having played almost all of them.

Is it theoretically possible for a small amp to sound and feel the same as a higher wattage amp at lower volumes? I'm honestly not sure, but I have personally never experienced that and have tried almost all of them.
 
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TheGreatGreen said:
As a matter of fact I probably couldn't tell in every blind test which amp was the "higher wattage" amp. What I can tell in blind tests, and what most other guitarists with decent monitors could tell, is that more than one amp is being played. I've never heard or played a small wattage amp that sounds identical to its higher wattage version, so there's got to be something to it. That's the only reasonable conclusion I can draw after having played almost all of them.

Is it theoretically possible for a small amp to sound and feel the same as a higher wattage amp at lower volumes? I'm honestly not sure, but I have personally never experienced that and have tried almost all of them.
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When it comes to high gain blind tests there is a good margin for being wrong in a mix on all counts from make, model, and wattage.

Outside of a mix, it gets easier to discern a brand's high-gain signature.

Calling the model of that seems to be possible but there will be some uncertainty depending on how many models like it there are.

Calling wattage would be a good guess to say 100W for metal. Rarrrrrr 🦁, metal, all the gain, all the volume, all the wattage. However, the question is if that is the only way to achieve that tone on tubes?

I think amp makers have said no with the production of 50W versions of all these amps for the studio and they did this 40 years ago. What is the other explanation for 50W versions? Are they just gimmicks? Obviously not. So the question about reducing wattage and yet retaining tone (at least what counts in a mix) I think was answered long ago by just the very presence of these 50W versions.

40 years later have some amp designers managed to get these packages into lower wattages? I think yes. Yes to the point that Marshall had to call their 20W series Studio amps (not small venue amps). Mesa Mark V a 25W and Friedman JJ Jr a 20W are much the same there. I don't think Peavey or Mesa Rec is there yet with this though. However, it wouldn't surprise me if Mesa tries that next with the Rec and Peavey with the block letter.

Some are there and some are not, but the 100W only-ism for high-gain I think is already halfway gone by the actions of the very amp manufacturers themselves. Apparently, these 20W-30W makers are fooling everyone by calling them gig-ready/same signature tone for recording, if you believe the doubters.
 
VESmedic said:
@DanTravis62 , you’re gonna have a stroke when you read this. He’s now saying the difference is only low end and… wait for it… headroom. I can feel your blood pressure rising from here. Now he admits headroom is a thing, but apparently ISNT that big of a deal.
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Sorry, that took me a while to get through ttd's bullshit, and now I can't feel the left side of my body.

I'm just glad @TheGreatGreen has more patience than I do, because there are only so many times I can explain to the autism speaks child that volume and frequency and these quantitative, measurable phenomena are just a small piece of the whole system of a tube guitar amplifier. It's mind boggling that someone can oversimplify that much.

But the Dunning-kruger effect is a bitch.

No one is saying smaller amps don't or can't sound great - it's just that they sound different than their bigger brothers.

Also,
Mark Skid said:
Rig Talk = Crippled men arguing over running shoes.
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Keep projecting your own inadequacies onto everyone else, I'm sure it's very healthy for you.
 
Mark Skid said:
Sure thing, Dr. Dan. If there's a charity that helps narcissistic personality disorder sprouts such as yourself, be sure to let me know.
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Ah yes, more projection. "I know I've been writing novels about Charlie Brown's Christmas Special on rig-talk, and pretending it's the equivalent to a masterclass from Mozart in Vienna, but you, you are the narcissist!"
 
DanTravis62 said:
Ah yes, more projection. "I know I've been writing novels about Charlie Brown's Christmas Special on rig-talk, and pretending it's the equivalent to a masterclass from Mozart in Vienna, but you, you are the narcissist!"
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Don't look now, but, you're projecting. ;)
 
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