Mark heads with & without GEQ

[GJgo]

I recently got my first Mark (IIC+) head without GEQ. I wanted to try it for myself after years of reading some guys saying they don't sound as good and don't have as much value, and other guys saying they sound better with less in the circuit (ala Doug West).

As it is, for "other than metal" it sounds killer w/o. Marks are mid heavy amps so once you deal with that the tones are solid. Killer cut & harmonics.

Next I picked up a Mesa 5 band EQ pedal to run in the loop. Some guys say "oh that doesn't sound the same as one with it built in". Well, Ok. I can tell you that with it in the loop it crushes!

So, how does one know for sure? I grabbed my IIC++ with GEQ. I did a tone comparo where I first used the onboard GEQ, then I turned that off & used the pedal in the loop with the same settings. Well, they do sound slightly different. The pedal in the loop sounds slightly tighter & crisper than the native GEQ. (I did also try both together but it was a bit much.)

Running the GEQ in the loop takes a little more effort, but from what I can tell there's not enough difference to matter. The differences guys hear probably have more to do with normal amp-to-amp variances. Sure, ones with the GEQ might sell for more but if it's the tone you want save your money & get a non-GEQ and then the pedal. Use the savings to have it serviced by Mike B. and get some new tubes!

 

[godgrinder]

I use a parametric EQ in the loop of my 2A and it's even more powerful, I don't mind not having GEQ on the amp at all.

 

[Racerxrated]

I recently got my first Mark (IIC+) head without GEQ. I wanted to try it for myself after years of reading some guys saying they don't sound as good and don't have as much value, and other guys saying they sound better with less in the circuit (ala Doug West).

As it is, for "other than metal" it sounds killer w/o. Marks are mid heavy amps so once you deal with that the tones are solid. Killer cut & harmonics.

Next I picked up a Mesa 5 band EQ pedal to run in the loop. Some guys say "oh that doesn't sound the same as one with it built in". Well, Ok. I can tell you that with it in the loop it crushes!

So, how does one know for sure? I grabbed my IIC++ with GEQ. I did a tone comparo where I first used the onboard GEQ, then I turned that off & used the pedal in the loop with the same settings. Well, they do sound slightly different. The pedal in the loop sounds slightly tighter & crisper than the native GEQ. (I did also try both together but it was a bit much.)

Running the GEQ in the loop takes a little more effort, but from what I can tell there's not enough difference to matter. The differences guys hear probably have more to do with normal amp-to-amp variances. Sure, ones with the GEQ might sell for more but if it's the tone you want save your money & get a non-GEQ and then the pedal. Use the savings to have it serviced by Mike B. and get some new tubes!

Sorry but I'm gonna disagree. I had a plan to possibly grab a non eq C+ Coli that was for sale a while back, and grabbed a Mesa 5 band to try out with my 60w SRG with the eq off. Didn't like it at all compared to the GEQ on the amp. Big difference to me. So I returned the Mesa 5 band and scrapped my plan lol. Not to say the non GEQ models are bad but with an eq in the loop it's just not that close to the GEQ built in IMO.

 

[paulyc]

^ This. I spoke AT LENGTH to Mike B. at Mesa and even he said not close, the EQ pedal isn't really close to the one in the amp, doesn't run on the same voltage, not the same components, not in the same part of the amp's circuit.

 

[Markedman]

MESA Mark amps are dark sounding to my ears when compared to Fender or Marshall type amps side by side, hence the V shaped GEQ settings commonly used with a Mark amp. I have Mark amps and have owned non-GEQ Marks. The GEQ is what I like about these amps and wouldn't consider having a Mark without one because that is where the magic is. Fender and Marshall type designs have the V shape tone to start with and could possibly benefit with a GEQ in the loop, but the MESA 5-band pedal has half the throw of the built-in GEQ (12v v. 24v?) so don't expect it in the loop of a Mark to sound the same as the built-in GEQ.

 

[steve_k]

If you after "that" tone on the IIC+, don't buy one without the GEQ. Two totally different amps.

 

[cardinal]

I always end up switching out the GEQ anyway. But for what it’s worth I do tend to struggle dialing in a Mark series.

 

[SpiderWars]

I thought I read that the G equipped models had a different value coupling cap somewhere in the preamp. I think this came up right after the JP2C came out.

If so then it's not really apples to apples.

 

[motorboy1]

MESA Mark amps are dark sounding to my ears when compared to Fender or Marshall type amps side by side, hence the V shaped GEQ settings commonly used with a Mark amp. I have Mark amps and have owned non-GEQ Marks. The GEQ is what I like about these amps and wouldn't consider having a Mark without one because that is where the magic is. Fender and Marshall type designs have the V shape tone to start with and could possibly benefit with a GEQ in the loop, but the MESA 5-band pedal has half the throw of the built-in GEQ (12v v. 24v?) so don't expect it in the loop of a Mark to sound the same as the built-in GEQ.

Have to agree. I have a Mark IV rev A that sounds too dark without the EQ engaged.

 

[GJgo]

As I read everyone's experiences here & elsewhere I'm sure that you all are speaking the truth as you know it, but I can't help but think that the truth is really that these amps were all hand built 30 years ago & there's just a lot of variance once you take it & plug it into a complete rig package, since every component makes a difference, then put your ears to it. Like I said when I A/Bd the external vs. internal on the same amp there was no real difference to the tonal range of the slider sweep, but the new one was crisper. Just one guy's experience..

Racer, was your SRG (I assume a C+) all original? All mine are recently Mike B. serviced so they're all fresh.

There is a different value coupling cap, this came out when people found out that the IIC+ mode in the V is based after Doug's favorite non-G models.

At any rate.. I got this DR to pair with a passive pickup guitar for playing "other than metal" and it is amazing. I just got the 5 band to mess around and wanted to share. I have my DRG++ with an active guitar for metal!

 

[Racerxrated]

As I read everyone's experiences here & elsewhere I'm sure that you all are speaking the truth as you know it, but I can't help but think that the truth is really that these amps were all hand built 30 years ago & there's just a lot of variance once you take it & plug it into a complete rig package, since every component makes a difference, then put your ears to it. Like I said when I A/Bd the external vs. internal on the same amp there was no real difference to the tonal range of the slider sweep, but the new one was crisper. Just one guy's experience..

Racer, was your SRG (I assume a C+) all original? All mine are recently Mike B. serviced so they're all fresh.

There is a different value coupling cap, this came out when people found out that the IIC+ mode in the V is based after Doug's favorite non-G models.

At any rate.. I got this DR to pair with a passive pickup guitar for playing "other than metal" and it is amazing. I just got the 5 band to mess around and wanted to share. I have my DRG++ with an active guitar for metal!

Nope, my old SRG C+ was an upgraded C that I stole from GC for 750 and sent it in myself. So it was a brand new C+ so to speak.
I would consider a non EQ C+ if the price was right, and knowing I might not be able to get "that" tone. I'd go in with different expectations. Not really a fan of the Mark series with the EQ off though, but for a C+ I'd be willing to try one sometime.

 

[GJgo]

Here's where I think the no-G versions excel (or G turned off). Cleans with a single coil / strat type sound are amazing. Classic rock amounts of breakup are epic. Really, pair it with the right guitar for anything other than hard rock & metal. Since I have the DRG ++ as well, with the pair and a couple guitars you can really cover everything.

This DR is an original with the RP11 board & 105 PT, it has the magic juice. I picked it up for 2K so I was willing to give it a try. There are others out there at this price point if you're patient.

 

[bubbastain]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

 

[Racerxrated]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

 

[GJgo]

Holy Shit, I just shot that to my Mesa buddy in Seattle. Deal city!

I haven't done any tone comparos with the C+ DR yet. Anything you guys want to hear?

 

[ZedEsq]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

Is it really though? Mike has raised his prices on converting them, so factor $400 for that, plus another $200-$300 for Mesa's required servicing and then shipping (back and forth, which is going to be at least $200). After all that, you still have a 100 PT, which sounds and feels noticeably "different" (I personally just went through this). Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a factory IIC+ - preferably w/ simul.

As to the GEQ, it definitely makes a difference. Count me in the crowd that wouldn't buy one without it.

 

[Racerxrated]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

Is it really though? Mike has raised his prices on converting them, so factor $400 for that, plus another $200-$300 for Mesa's required servicing and then shipping (back and forth, which is going to be at least $200). After all that, you still have a 100 PT, which sounds and feels noticeably "different" (I personally just went through this). Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a factory IIC+ - preferably w/ simul.

As to the GEQ, it definitely makes a difference. Count me in the crowd that wouldn't buy one without it.

900 for a 2C is a great deal and not debatable IMO. With or without EQ, that's a killer amp by itself. Before I sent my old SRG C in I hesitated...crazy I know but that amp was so raw and great sounding that it was arguably the best amp I'd ever played, without a doubt. Of course I sent it in for the +, which after shipping both ways was about 600 extra. This one has no EQ so it will be cheaper to mod, by 100 I think. But, the C+ that I got back was amazing and was smoother, so it lost some of the rawness it had before. No regrets but if I found another C for a good price I just might get it and leave it a C, if it sounded like my old SRG. It was truly incredible.

 

[ZedEsq]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

Is it really though? Mike has raised his prices on converting them, so factor $400 for that, plus another $200-$300 for Mesa's required servicing and then shipping (back and forth, which is going to be at least $200). After all that, you still have a 100 PT, which sounds and feels noticeably "different" (I personally just went through this). Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a factory IIC+ - preferably w/ simul.

As to the GEQ, it definitely makes a difference. Count me in the crowd that wouldn't buy one without it.

900 for a 2C is a great deal and not debatable IMO. With or without EQ, that's a killer amp by itself. Before I sent my old SRG C in I hesitated...crazy I know but that amp was so raw and great sounding that it was arguably the best amp I'd ever played, without a doubt. Of course I sent it in for the +, which after shipping both ways was about 600 extra. This one has no EQ so it will be cheaper to mod, by 100 I think. But, the C+ that I got back was amazing and was smoother, so it lost some of the rawness it had before. No regrets but if I found another C for a good price I just might get it and leave it a C, if it sounded like my old SRG. It was truly incredible.

It's not cheaper to mod a graphic-less than one with, and Mike's prices went up this year.

Sure, the posted amp is cool and a good value for $900 on its own. If you're after "THE" IIC+ tone everyone has in their mind, it wont start to get there until you're close to the price of a factory original anyway. Plus, the IIC has a pretty lame loop, at least compared to the IIC+. But Mike can fix that too...

Also, your IIC SRG had the same transformer as a IIC+ SRG. The same can't be said for Simuls or 60/100 - IICs had the 100s, the IIC+ had the 105.

 

[Racerxrated]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

Is it really though? Mike has raised his prices on converting them, so factor $400 for that, plus another $200-$300 for Mesa's required servicing and then shipping (back and forth, which is going to be at least $200). After all that, you still have a 100 PT, which sounds and feels noticeably "different" (I personally just went through this). Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a factory IIC+ - preferably w/ simul.

As to the GEQ, it definitely makes a difference. Count me in the crowd that wouldn't buy one without it.

900 for a 2C is a great deal and not debatable IMO. With or without EQ, that's a killer amp by itself. Before I sent my old SRG C in I hesitated...crazy I know but that amp was so raw and great sounding that it was arguably the best amp I'd ever played, without a doubt. Of course I sent it in for the +, which after shipping both ways was about 600 extra. This one has no EQ so it will be cheaper to mod, by 100 I think. But, the C+ that I got back was amazing and was smoother, so it lost some of the rawness it had before. No regrets but if I found another C for a good price I just might get it and leave it a C, if it sounded like my old SRG. It was truly incredible.

It's not cheaper to mod a graphic-less than one with, and Mike's prices went up this year.

Sure, the posted amp is cool and a good value for $900 on its own. If you're after "THE" IIC+ tone everyone has in their mind, it wont start to get there until you're close to the price of a factory original anyway. Plus, the IIC has a pretty lame loop, at least compared to the IIC+. But Mike can fix that too...

Also, your IIC SRG had the same transformer as a IIC+ SRG. The same can't be said for Simuls or 60/100 - IICs had the 100s, the IIC+ had the 105.

Early 2C+ DRG/HRG did come with the 100 PT for at least a few hundred models. Some prefer the 100s, although most seem to prefer the 105s. All subjective. Just like the debate over original vs upgrade fallacy, I've had an original side by side with my upgraded 60 and the 60 won out, there goes that debate for me. Originals are worth more but not any different/better sounding amps. They're all C+s.
Here's a scenario...someone out there has a Mk III. Had it for years. Buys the 2C in Seattle and sends both amps to Mike. Pirates the GEQ and faceplate from the III and has Mike put the GEQ and faceplate from the III on the C and upgrades it. Sacrifices one amp to make the 2C+ whole with a GEQ. He's got maybe 2K into it because the III has been long paid for. Yes, the III is no more but there's a huge difference between a III and a 2C+...worth the sacrifice.

 

[ZedEsq]

If anyone is interested.....

https://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/msg/ ... 05868.html

Now that's a great price.

Is it really though? Mike has raised his prices on converting them, so factor $400 for that, plus another $200-$300 for Mesa's required servicing and then shipping (back and forth, which is going to be at least $200). After all that, you still have a 100 PT, which sounds and feels noticeably "different" (I personally just went through this). Frankly, I'd rather just spend the extra few hundred bucks and get a factory IIC+ - preferably w/ simul.

As to the GEQ, it definitely makes a difference. Count me in the crowd that wouldn't buy one without it.

900 for a 2C is a great deal and not debatable IMO. With or without EQ, that's a killer amp by itself. Before I sent my old SRG C in I hesitated...crazy I know but that amp was so raw and great sounding that it was arguably the best amp I'd ever played, without a doubt. Of course I sent it in for the +, which after shipping both ways was about 600 extra. This one has no EQ so it will be cheaper to mod, by 100 I think. But, the C+ that I got back was amazing and was smoother, so it lost some of the rawness it had before. No regrets but if I found another C for a good price I just might get it and leave it a C, if it sounded like my old SRG. It was truly incredible.

It's not cheaper to mod a graphic-less than one with, and Mike's prices went up this year.

Sure, the posted amp is cool and a good value for $900 on its own. If you're after "THE" IIC+ tone everyone has in their mind, it wont start to get there until you're close to the price of a factory original anyway. Plus, the IIC has a pretty lame loop, at least compared to the IIC+. But Mike can fix that too...

Also, your IIC SRG had the same transformer as a IIC+ SRG. The same can't be said for Simuls or 60/100 - IICs had the 100s, the IIC+ had the 105.

Early 2C+ DRG/HRG did come with the 100 PT for at least a few hundred models. Some prefer the 100s, although most seem to prefer the 105s. All subjective. Just like the debate over original vs upgrade fallacy, I've had an original side by side with my upgraded 60 and the 60 won out, there goes that debate for me. Originals are worth more but not any different/better sounding amps. They're all C+s.
Here's a scenario...someone out there has a Mk III. Had it for years. Buys the 2C in Seattle and sends both amps to Mike. Pirates the GEQ and faceplate from the III and has Mike put the GEQ and faceplate from the III on the C and upgrades it. Sacrifices one amp to make the 2C+ whole with a GEQ. He's got maybe 2K into it because the III has been long paid for. Yes, the III is no more but there's a huge difference between a III and a 2C+...worth the sacrifice.

No offense, but you actually got that backwards - some VERY late IICs came w/ 105s (and the RP11 board). No factory original IIC+ came with a 100 PT stock, nor did they come with the RP10 board. But hey, if you want to link something to that effect, I'd appreciate it since I love learning more about these amps.

As to the original vs. factory debate, I totally disagree. A 105 sounds and feels very different than a 100 PT. You can prefer one versus the other, but that doesn't change the fact that they are VERY different and only one came stock in the IIC+. Again, this is different than 60s, which came with the same PT in both IIC and IIC+ forms.

As to your scenario, see my post above about the 105 PT. The "upgraded" amp will still have the 100 PT, and will therefore sound and feel different than a 60/100 with the 105 PT. That being said, I would be far more inclined to do the faceplate mod to an upgraded IIC than I would an original IIC+. I'm sure it would turn out to be a totally awesome amp, but still different than a factory IIC+. By the way - no need to buy the Mark III - Mike still has Mark III faceplates and can build you a graphic.

By the way, google "Chipaudette" - he has a really cool post about the changes Mike made to his IIC to upgrade it to IIC+ spec. Unless the IIC comes w/ the RP10 board, it's a fairly invasive process.