Techdeth
RESIDENT ROCK PROFESSOR
I should have kept all my old rectifiers and marks
japetus
Well-known member
I have been just dragging my feet. I am using a silverface Bassman with boosts right now. I do have that 1 watt Randall, so I guess technically I have a high gain head. I am going to eventually get a Dual Recto or maybe a DSL100 soon just to have a higher gain head. I am not very picky to be honest. I am always looking out on GC used and other places for a used Peters head also.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
Lead tones, OK.
Warmth, OK.
Punch, disagreed. I feel guitars pop out and punch a lot harder once you get rid of the stuffiness and muddiness in there. Especially if you're using stuff like a Tube Screamer or a Mesa Recto cab, like VESmedic mentioned.
But I mean, I don't go for warmth in my guitar tone. Like, at all. I don't think VESmedic does either. At least not from what I've heard on his clips.
But I do think you're right in saying that guitar tones don't reach THAT far down or THAT high up. Especially compared to something like a kick drum or cymbals. But there's still plenty of important stuff contributing to a guitar tone below 150 Hz and above 4-5K. You just gotta be careful how you treat it.
In the end, I think we're both arguing about something that is pretty subjective. I've just found boosting the kidn of mids that you're suggesting we should, doesn't translate to guitars sitting well in a mix. In the end, I don't know what your setup is like, and you don't know mine. In the end, you might as well be using a Valvestate through JBL's and I could be using a non-EQ Mark amp with V30's, LOL.
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braintheory
Well-known member
I don’t go for warmth necessarily either if I’m doing metal, but when some gear that’s over 25 years old is part of the equation there will inevitably be some warmth in there. If you use cold/clinical sounding pedals like the dirty tree, Fortin’s or Empress PQ (which also have those ugly tonal artifacts after each note) that sound will be there and not necessary imo or also if using other cold sounding gear like BKP’s, etc.
EQ’s IME are a more functional for getting the balance to taste, but IME don’t in & of itself take away or add warmth to the core sound unless using a vintage eq pedal/device for warmth or a modern eq like the empress that’ll make it colder no matter how you set the eq itself on them (just the inherent color of the pedals). I think warmth (or cold/clinical) is more an inherent timbre/character of the gear itself that is stronger typically in older gear (some exceptions with newer gear having it too, but very few). An Engl Powerball, Fortin Natas or Line 6 for example will never sound warm no matter how much low mids I add via eq lol, but I guess it can mask it coldness to an extent
I think most, myself included, would agree about low mids with just the one exception being my Klon, which somehow adds this punch & focus in the low mids without muddying or interfering, maybe since it also has low cut in the right places, not sure. Even with my inherently low-mid heavy Recto’s it sounds great, but my go to pedal with them is still my Tamura & Fortin modded Tube Screamers depending which of my Recto’s I use
I don’t think those speaker & amp combos mentioned exactly do what I think you’re implying, but I get the point. A non-eq mark amp with a 25m GB or current made Alnico blue would truly be nasal/honk city lol. I think the sound of JBL’s is a bit misunderstood
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
I do think that our approach to tone is different. I think from reading what we've discussed, you go more for the in-the-room experience and I go more for hearing how a tone sounds mic'd up and made to fit a mix where some of the viscerality of standing in front of a loud amp is lost and you're left with a more analytical aspect to it. I mean, after all, I have no problem to using a plain jane current production 5150III as opposed to something fancy, boutique, or vintage, because I trust a 5150III will mic-up well. But I see your point that the experience does affect the way you play, and, in turn, how the tone will come out in the end.
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braintheory
Well-known member
I do value most how gear sounds in-person, but I am getting a little more into recording lately (gradually though) and it hasn’t really changed what I’m looking for. I did also a re-amp with my gear for my friend’s album in 2021. He did all the recording/technical part (since I knew nothing about that at the time), while I just dialed in my amps lol. In either case, I think everything I’ve said was still similarly important for those scenarios too. IME a 5150III functionally works well because of it’s voicing & eq, but the tone itself is to me just ok, but nothing truly amazing (kinda imo plastic-y and lacking the complexity of what I think is a top notch tone). I want something that functionally works and also has a quality of tone that is exceptional or at least as good as what I think can be done. I’m not impressed with sounds that simply work perfectly in a mix if the quality of tone itself still isn’t great (this is very common). It’s not meant to be snobby or elitist, but just to satisfy my ears. It’s not for me as much about it affecting the way I play (even though it does for sure do that) and I certainly am very anti the whole “tone is in the fingers” saying LOL
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Techdeth
RESIDENT ROCK PROFESSOR
All good choices . We all have too many choices lol
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
Curious, what recorded tones do you usually look up to? I mean, we all seek for our own tone, but we get influences from somewhere, right? What are yours?
RaceU4her
Well-known member
I was going to ask the same thing
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braintheory
Well-known member
So my background is a bit different I guess. I’m really just a classical guitarist that loves gear and values quality/complexity of tone in any given instrument regardless of style. Outside of playing my own gear I don’t really listen much anymore to music than has electric guitar in it. It’s mostly contemporary classical guitar music I listen to these days, but when I was younger before starting classical guitar I was inspired by the rock/metal that most like: Metallica, Meshuggah, Megadeth, All That Remains, Iron Maiden, etc, but I never really was amazed at their tone or much of the lead guitar work. It was just the music itself that I liked. I liked a lot Sepultura’s sounds, but not the music itself. There were a lot of bands that I thought had cool sounds, but not great music, so it’s hard for me to remember their names haha. I never tried to copy anyone sound because none of them were ideal to me. I just tried to borrow the pieces I liked here & there. I have criteria I like independently of what any bands does: I want a complete growl on chords (no hollow or smoothed out holes), sufficiently tight, percussive palm mutes that track fast, the single notes need to have sufficient complexity & weight to them and connect to each other in a vocal way, some others that are hard to put in words, but much of my criteria I want really isn’t too different than what a great violin or classical guitar or any instrument really is supposed to be. There are so many universal commonalities regardless of instrument of what makes good tone. In my field in classical this is more of a universally understood or agreed on thing, but in electric it seems to be prevalent more in blues & classic rock players that feel more similarly to me even though I don’t really connect with those styles much
In either case, one thing I’m happy about is my friend and also the mixer or producer (whatever he was) were both impressed with what I gave them and he said he didn’t really have to edit or change that much. I don’t know anything about that. I just dial in tones that I like, but sometimes I did things I didn’t like at all to get what they wanted, but whatever. I just do my thing. Even in classical guitar many tell me that my style is very different than what players today are doing and my teacher is just making little refinements to it so it’s more understandable I guess, while still maintaining what I want to. Sorry for the long read. Couldn’t really say it in a short way lol
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Brandonrz
Well-known member
Subjective to a point, human hearing in the room with an amp cranked up is flawed. If we’re talking about metal mixes… Seriously, no one out there pumps 300-500hz up in a mix. No one. Just watch any of the greats out there mixing guitars they ALL cut that area. That’s like putting a nasally blanket over your guitar tone. Idk man, anyone with a pair of studio monitors that costs over 100 dollars can tell that muddies up your tone. Not just your tone but will ruin your entire mix.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
I think all Meshuggah, Metallica, and All that Remains have some stellar tones that I personally do like. Not what I would want those tones for myself, but they were pretty game changing in their time (I mean Metallica and Meshuggah).
It's funny because Meshuggah even used pretty basic stuff to get their tones at some point. But the tone they got just fit their music so perfectly.
I guess I'm in that camp that great tones can be had from modest gear. May not have the most harmonic complexity, but it just works if you know how to use it. Same as Death, At the Gates, or Pantera.
But honestly, all of them had great some outstanding people mixing their stuff.
It's funny because Meshuggah even used pretty basic stuff to get their tones at some point. But the tone they got just fit their music so perfectly.
I guess I'm in that camp that great tones can be had from modest gear. May not have the most harmonic complexity, but it just works if you know how to use it. Same as Death, At the Gates, or Pantera.
But honestly, all of them had great some outstanding people mixing their stuff.
2ncicu
Well-known member
Loved my MK III no stripe shorty simul cast- never should have sold.. Newer models are so dry sounding.
Rex Rocker
Well-known member
Exactly why I never dial my amps to just sound good in the room. I find good mic'd tones always translate to good in the room sounds. I don't find the opposite to be always true. You might get lucky, but I rarely find that to be the case.
In fact, I kinda was in the camp that thought "yeah, midz" until I started throwing a mic in front of stuff.
And partly a reason why I'll never get people who prefer iPhone amp clips.
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braintheory
Well-known member
Those are some of my favorite bands still, so don’t get wrong I have so much respect for those guys and would agree they were game changers, but I find any tone that is lacking complexity to just be boring & uninspiring for me even if functionally it is 10/10. Just “working” functionally alone doesn’t hold my attention. That alone would never make me a gearhead. The one Dumble I tried (and some of the best classical guitars), I could literally just play a high open e and be stunned at how much detail is going in just that. It was a religious experience for me
Ultimately, quality of music is the most important part for me still and I guess the tone fitting may be more important for that than quality (very tough to say), but when I choose to listen and focus on tone, I’m really listening for just that. I can’t multi task to save my life LOL. The thing is, more often than not, I see no reason why we can’t have both other than affordability being a factor, so I just get what I can
I actually have some very affordable gear here & there with great tonal complexity still and these are the items I call “sleepers” or “well kept secrets”. Meshuggah’s tone often sounded a little processed to me even before I knew what they used, but still unique/cool and quite different than what I was used to at the time, but it’s really the quality of their musical ideas & rhythms that make them worthwhile for me. They are amazing for sure
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anomaly
Well-known member
... I do use a maxon od808 and a Mesa recto cab, lol. Was just cranking through my Mark IV through the recto cab a few minutes ago, haha. I like a little warmth in my tone, and when I turn down that 240hz (371hz) slider it loses all of it's body, punch, warmth... just my experience. I like it at the half way point at least.
I know guitars reach down below 150hz and above 4-5k, it's just not that often that you really hear that part of the guitars tone in a full mix. When the guitars are soloed ya, but when there's a big fat bass tone, drums and cymbals crashing you don't really hear much of it, unless it's like I said... a Pantera record or something metal from the late 80's, early 90's.
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braintheory
Well-known member
I like the 240 slider on the marks amp anywhere from maybe 20% to as high as halfway up depending what I’m playing, but I think of that as being more giving fullness/thickness/body to the sound. The warmth itself isn’t changed by that imo. That’s a timbral characteristic more just inherent to an amp that I’d shape more for warmth with things like tubes, pickups, guitar, pedals, etc. I like warmth too as long as it doesn’t take away from the application it’s used for. The absolute tightest, fastest sounding amps I’ve tried seem to be more cold & hollow sounding. Seems to be a trade off. For a lot of modern or extreme metal it seems warmth has to be compromised to at least some extent. In slower styles it seems we can go all out for the richest, most complex tone without really needing to compromise for functionality purposes
Beefeater
Active member
I'm going to say I much prefer the old recto, only because with my Rev G I only use the orange channel. The old ones orange channel just works for me. I will say the red channel sound was a toss up. If that was my go to I would take the multiwatt just for the clean channel. I feel like he could have probably dialed in the orange channel on the new one to get a different, but great sound as well. Oh well.
Still to this day though, the best recto sound I've heard live came from an experimental guitarist rocking an old 3 channel. Inspired me to track down my old rev g and buy it back.
Still to this day though, the best recto sound I've heard live came from an experimental guitarist rocking an old 3 channel. Inspired me to track down my old rev g and buy it back.
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braintheory
Well-known member
Agreed. If it weren’t for that orange channel I wouldn’t own any Recto’s, not even my Rev C. The orange is where the magic is of that throaty low mid growl they get on powerchords that is unique to just Recto’s and the Rev C & D imo are the best takes of that sound. The green ch seems to be the one thing that got better with the revisions, but not worth it at the expensive of the orange imo
Even in Fluff’s video there was a pretty clear difference in the D sounding more alive & aggressive vs the MW (more laid back), but in-person it’s even more pronounced
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VESmedic
Well-known member
I’m gonna disagree with you pretty much completely here. And that’s ok. Hetfields tone and vibe, if you wanna put it in “certain frequencies”, comes from a big cut around 1.2k. Which, it’s ironic you brought up pantera, because it’s well documented that a big cut at the same frequency is what gave Dime a similar vibe ( although of course totally different tones). Also, we weren’t talking about leads, yes 3-400 is cool on leads ( or can be), but the vast majority of instruments boosting in this area, it sounds terrible. Room mics are one thing, the EQ on the close mics is a totally different thing.
