Why does Electronic Gear hold better value than tube amps?

[Spaceboy]

That's a strange argument. The Axe FX is plug and play. You choose an amp and a cab, plug in and play. It doesn't get any simpler. You have to go out of your way to get into the in depth tweaks. You don't ever have to touch any of that if not needed.

 

[RJF]

I sure the heck can't afford to buy a new amp every time I want to try a new sound, most people can't.

I get that. But, it's still not actually trying "said" amp out anyway. It's just another preset on the same box, through the same power amp being used. Example, an AXE/Mesa 6L6 power amp and a Marshall or Vox preset. I totally get the appeal though.

 

[Capulin Overdrive]

And what will the digi-junk be worth 10 or 20 years from now?

 

[zuel69]

And what will the digi-junk be worth 10 or 20 years from now?

 

[ghosty999]

What would you rather have...

A fake rolex
Or a real rolex?

They both look the same... but there is just something not right with fake, it will never have that feel and it will always have it's flaws.

Fake amp sounds are for fake people.

If you can't afford 20 boutique tube amps then pick one you love that you will use live, save up and buy it. Then for jamming 100 amps in 30 seconds at home use a VST or micro cube.

 

[siggy14]

It is supply and demand flat out. Take a look at amps that have limited supply and they are also getting close to new price on the used market.

And what will the digi-junk be worth 10 or 20 years from now?

OK I want to be up front and say I am still holding on to tube amps, but being a smart enough guy I can see that something like the Axe FX is a better deal over time.

Right now the Axe FX is doing really well; people that buy them have no problem getting most of their money back when selling. Even if they don't get full amount back you have to think this way.

Let’s do a cost to own over a 5 year period, take a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier Vs an Axe FX II. We will add in that with the triple you will have to do at least 2 tube changes in a five year period.
Mesa $2099 New + 2 tube changes $150x2 = $2399 total out of pocket expense. When you go to resell You will be lucky to $1100. So $2399 - $1100= $1299 loss over a five year period.

Axe FX II New $2199 no other costs over five year period. Lets say we sell on the low side of $1800, that is a $400 loss over a five year period.

So in 20 years yes the Axe FX II might be in the trash or be considered so far out dated that it is not useable anymore. But let’s say you replace tubes every 2 years and estimating an increase in price of tubes at 3% every two years you are talking around $1660 in tubes over a 20 year period. That same amp you will probably have to get serviced at least once so lets say another $250 there, so overall in over a 20 year period we are talking $1910 just in maintenance charges plus or minus some cash.

In reality though Tube Vs Digital will depend on the person, do you flip a lot looking for a certain tone? do you buy used? Do you get pursued by public opinion easy? Do you hate tweaking looking for a tone? If you answered yes to these questions then I would stick with tube amps.

If you answered no to these questions I would get an Axe FX II.

 

[dfrattaroli]

You seem the same thing with certain products though. Look at Strymon pedals on eBay. The Timeline for example is $449 new and is in stock but sells for close to new prices all the time. Same is true with other Strymon pedals. I don't get it.

 

[siggy14]

What would you rather have...

A fake rolex
Or a real rolex?

They both look the same... but there is just something not right with fake, it will never have that feel and it will always have it's flaws.

Fake amp sounds are for fake people.

If you can't afford 20 boutique tube amps then pick one you love that you will use live, save up and buy it. Then for jamming 100 amps in 30 seconds at home use a VST or micro cube.

Honestly the high end stuff like Axe FX II and Kemper sound just as good as the real stuff and feel the same. Will they sound exactly like your beloved amp, probably not, but neither will another amp of the same make and model.

 

[thiswaythatway]

It's really only the Fractal, Kemper, and Strymon pedals that hold their value. Most other digital stuff does not. Every Guitar Center you walk into now is like a wasteland of digital junk and used Line 6 and Vox digital amps are really cheap.

 

[ghosty999]

What would you rather have...

A fake rolex
Or a real rolex?

They both look the same... but there is just something not right with fake, it will never have that feel and it will always have it's flaws.

Fake amp sounds are for fake people.

If you can't afford 20 boutique tube amps then pick one you love that you will use live, save up and buy it. Then for jamming 100 amps in 30 seconds at home use a VST or micro cube.

Honestly the high end stuff like Axe FX II and Kemper sound just as good as the real stuff and feel the same. Will they sound exactly like your beloved amp, probably not, but neither will another amp of the same make and model.

In the same way in buying a really high end fake Rolex, it will feel, look and work exactly the same. But behind it all you know there isn't a beautiful Swiss movement, just crappy Chinese copied parts. Same with an amp, there is isn't glowing lovely tubes housed in a timeless looking amp head, there is just a rack unit with flashing lights all over it. Yeah it does the same, yeah it's cheaper, yeah it's almost identical... but it will never be a Rolex, it will always be a copy/replica/emulation.

Just my subjective theory

 

[JimmyBlind]

Regarding the OP, I would say it was absolutely the other way round.
Digital, processor & software-based equipment has never really held its value because it doesn't cost a lot to manufacture & is forever victim to technological redundancy. Look how quickly televisions & computers devalue.

I think you do get plenty of functionality out of the AxeFX however. There are very few criticisms I can find of the AxeFX, given how many problems they solve in terms of portability, consistency & studio benefit. My needs as a player are few in the scheme of things, so I prefer my over-driven guitar tone to come truthfully & organically rather than digitally.

An amplifier doesn't really evolve & only ever does what it was designed to do. I can't name an amp historically that has undergone sonic improvement over the decades.
Every iteration of the axefx will be a sonic improvement of its predecessor, offering better processing performance necessitated by Fractal's improved firmware. New firmware that offers even better synthesis of tube-amplifier response than its predecessor.
I can't be arsed with all that personally.

 

[tech21man]

And also, who says analog doesn't hold or even raise its value?

Think of what some amps were sold for and how much are they selling for now. Most of these, higher end amps usually have some things in common with the axe-fx which is, rarity for example and as a result desirability.

For example the mesa mark IIC+, soldano SLO and other analog or even vintage marshalls (some) hold their value pretty damn good.


If that asswipe cliff had put out and axe-fx plugin you'd see mark Is for 500 or less.


If a next/new game changer comes along, I'd say it'll go the prophecy road. I remember friends in europe drulling over the rocktron for insane prices even used. Now nobody wants one and all find it to sound sowewhat plastick-y.

 

[RJF]

Couple good points I see.

1. It's a good point, that I can only name Strymon, AXE, and Kemper as digi products holding their value. Look at some of the FX processors out there that the AXE competed with. Lexicon MPXG2, worth jack at this point compared to it's original $1500 price, Rocktron rack gear, etc.

2. The Triple rec vs the Axe over a 20 year period. What happens if the AXE dies? Can those things be worked on? I know when it comes to some electronic gear, when it quits, you throw it in the garbage. A good tube amp is a working piece of equipment that can be diagnosed and fixed 99% of the time.

 

[siggy14]

Couple good points I see.

1. It's a good point, that I can only name Strymon, AXE, and Kemper as digi products holding their value. Look at some of the FX processors out there that the AXE competed with. Lexicon MPXG2, worth jack at this point compared to it's original $1500 price, Rocktron rack gear, etc.

2. The Triple rec vs the Axe over a 20 year period. What happens if the AXE dies? Can those things be worked on? I know when it comes to some electronic gear, when it quits, you throw it in the garbage. A good tube amp is a working piece of equipment that can be diagnosed and fixed 99% of the time.

Honestly I don't see anyone holding on to an Axe for more then 4 years, at which point they will turn around and buy the latest model at which point they will take a $200 to $400 dollar hit. The 20 year projection was more to see how much an amp would cost you over that time. If you were to take that Mesa Triple Rec and sell it after 4 years you would be taking at least a $1200 hit.

Keep in mind I was also doing this 20 year projection on how the music scene has been going for the last 5 to 10 years, if we continue on the same course my projection would stand correct that it is cheaper to own and sell and buy the latest Axe then it would be to hold onto one really good tube amp.

Of course there are way to many variables and things could change, like if the Axe and Kemper got real competition that was mass produced which would cause both Kemper and Axe to have to lower their prices and mass produce in order to compete, at which point it would be even cheaper to own digital over tube amp.

When all is said and done go for what you like, if you are a one tone or two tone set and play type of person a tube amp might just be your thing. But if you want many tones and the ability to adjust the hell out of something I would suggest the Axe. Me personally have been fighting the urge to get an Axe for many years and just stick to my tube amps. FYI if I ever due go Axe it would be an Axe into a power amp into a 4x12 for live setup as I feel they sound the best this way.

 

[siggy14]

What would you rather have...

A fake rolex
Or a real rolex?

They both look the same... but there is just something not right with fake, it will never have that feel and it will always have it's flaws.

Fake amp sounds are for fake people.

If you can't afford 20 boutique tube amps then pick one you love that you will use live, save up and buy it. Then for jamming 100 amps in 30 seconds at home use a VST or micro cube.

Honestly the high end stuff like Axe FX II and Kemper sound just as good as the real stuff and feel the same. Will they sound exactly like your beloved amp, probably not, but neither will another amp of the same make and model.

In the same way in buying a really high end fake Rolex, it will feel, look and work exactly the same. But behind it all you know there isn't a beautiful Swiss movement, just crappy Chinese copied parts. Same with an amp, there is isn't glowing lovely tubes housed in a timeless looking amp head, there is just a rack unit with flashing lights all over it. Yeah it does the same, yeah it's cheaper, yeah it's almost identical... but it will never be a Rolex, it will always be a copy/replica/emulation.

Just my subjective theory

Oh you mean just like the Chinese parts and tubes inside tube amps? The Axe and Kemper use the same high quality parts that most amp manufactures use these days minus the tubes. But yes I will give you that it is a fake tube sounding distortion that 90% of people could not tell the difference. I tend to find where the Axe and Kemper still fall short are on the cab sims which is why if I ever go digital I would do a Axe into a power amp into a 4X12

 

[zuel69]

Oh you mean just like the Chinese parts and tubes inside tube amps? The Axe and Kemper use the same high quality parts that most computer manufactures use these days. But yes I will give you that it is a fake tube sounding distortion that 90% of people could not tell the difference. I tend to find where the Axe and Kemper still fall short are on the cab sims which is why if I ever go digital I would do a Axe into a power amp into a 4X12

 

[siggy14]

Oh you mean just like the Chinese parts and tubes inside tube amps? The Axe and Kemper use the same high quality parts that most computer manufactures use these days. But yes I will give you that it is a fake tube sounding distortion that 90% of people could not tell the difference. I tend to find where the Axe and Kemper still fall short are on the cab sims which is why if I ever go digital I would do a Axe into a power amp into a 4X12

Do you think there is a difference between resisters and caps in a computer compared to an amp? I can tell you no, different values yes and sometimes different types yes as well. Of course a computer/Axe will not need can caps for filtering nor will they need some high power grid resisters, but most of the rest of the components are the same.

 

[zuel69]

You've gotta be kidding me, micro processors and surface mount part's aren't in any of my amps..so the answer is YES there is a huge difference. Your not comparing apples to apples when your talking about component types between a modeler and a good old fashion tube amp...

Oh you mean just like the Chinese parts and tubes inside tube amps? The Axe and Kemper use the same high quality parts that most computer manufactures use these days. But yes I will give you that it is a fake tube sounding distortion that 90% of people could not tell the difference. I tend to find where the Axe and Kemper still fall short are on the cab sims which is why if I ever go digital I would do a Axe into a power amp into a 4X12

Do you think there is a difference between resisters and caps in a computer compared to an amp? I can tell you no, different values yes and sometimes different types yes as well. Of course a computer/Axe will not need can caps for filtering nor will they need some high power grid resisters, but most of the rest of the components are the same.

 

[spliffsperlunk]

I have a feeling that there are a ton of bedroom/hobby players out there who are buying up the Fractal/Kemper stuff and at the same time selling off their collection of tube amps which is affecting the prices and resale respectively.

From what I've seen they're making the switch not because the digital stuff is better but because its more versatile for many and it emulates many different kinds of amps which saves money over buying several expensive tube amps and recording with the digital stuff is easier or more convenient.

I consider it a win win though as a player who prefers tube amps as there are some awesome deals to be had right now and I'm always trying to add top shelf amps to my meager but growing collection ,The way I look at it my tube amps are playable art and an investment that will ultimately hold their value and hopefully increase in the long run .

My guess is that most high end/ desirable tube amps will be worth more in 10 years than they are now but the axe fx2 xl and the Kemper resale will drop considerably as they are replaced by newer models and more competition arrives on the market.

 

[siggy14]

You've gotta be kidding me, micro processors and surface mount part's aren't in any of my amps..so the answer is YES there is a huge difference. Your not comparing apples to apples when your talking about component types between a modeler and a good old fashion tube amp...

Oh you mean just like the Chinese parts and tubes inside tube amps? The Axe and Kemper use the same high quality parts that most computer manufactures use these days. But yes I will give you that it is a fake tube sounding distortion that 90% of people could not tell the difference. I tend to find where the Axe and Kemper still fall short are on the cab sims which is why if I ever go digital I would do a Axe into a power amp into a 4X12

Do you think there is a difference between resisters and caps in a computer compared to an amp? I can tell you no, different values yes and sometimes different types yes as well. Of course a computer/Axe will not need can caps for filtering nor will they need some high power grid resisters, but most of the rest of the components are the same.

Microprocessors I will give you, surface mount parts I cant tell you if any of the cheaper amps use them, but I play boogies or other high end amps so they do not. But to play devils advocate if tube amp companies could get away with surface mount I bet they would, just too much voltage/current in order to power those big tubes.

Still I really do not see the point of how you get the tone as long as you get the tone, the whole parts thing came up because he was complaining about Chinese parts in Axe which most amp companies now use.

Neither is better, they both get the same job done using different methods, depending on your needs will determine which way you go. As to feel of a tube amp, both Axe and Kemper are there, where I feel they are lacking is on cab sims which can be corrected by using a power amp and cab instead of going direct.

Will digital be the wave of the future, that is really going to depend on the current generation and if they embrace it or not, but personally I feel it will embraced, I am hoping not in my lifetime as I prefer the simplicity of plugging into a tube amp, turning a few knobs and I am happy, I am not really a tweaker.