Why Modern Music Production Sounds like Ass....

[skoora]

You’re likely noting the differences you hear when bottom-mic’ing a snare and getting a lot of the actual snares ringing out, the little metal wires stretched across the head and are responsible for the “chhh” sound in a snare and not the “bop” sound of hitting a tom. If you don’t mic the bottom of the snare at all it’s harder to hear.

But there’s also some of what you said in your first post; guys like Danny Carey, Mike Portnoy and Brooks Wackerman turn their snares on/off during a song, so it’ll sound like a high pitched tom until they turn the snares back on. Portnoy’s sig snare has an On/mid-way/off setting for the strainer (basically a tuning machine for a snare) so he can utilize 3 different snare sounds live.

You don’t see Danny turn it on until later into the song here-

You still get the majority of the snare sound you hear in a recording from the top. When you mic the bottom, you don’t tend to mix it in that loud compared to the top. Micing the bottom is also to get more beef in the snare. It’s done with toms a lot. Mic the bottom, flip the phase and mix in for more body.
There’s decades of cracking, beautiful snare drum recordings where they only mic’d the top head.

 

[DanTravis62]

But he keeps throwing in Quotes and examples from Nirvana, Grohl, Vig and Albini as reinforcement for what he’s talking about. He’s definitely saying you should embrace the bleed and messiness of the drums but that doesn’t really work for 90% of rock productions. I bet the first year a gate was adopted for studio use (later 70’s I think), it was used on a kick and snare drum.

Yeah I get what you're saying about 90s drums but just using gates and compression and trying to separate the disparate elements is a million light years away from beat detective and full sample replacement.

I would be willing to guarantee that every drum recording of the 90s had some bleed and messiness with some of the mics. It's well known with hihats bleeding into the snare mic, crashes bleeding into the Tom mics, that it's IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of all the bleed - you're just trying to separate the elements ENOUGH that you have some control over them.

That's a completely different thing, and way closer to the 60s method than the modern beat detective sample replacement method.

 

[skoora]

Yeah I get what you're saying about 90s drums but just using gates and compression and trying to separate the disparate elements is a million light years away from beat detective and full sample replacement.

I would be willing to guarantee that every drum recording of the 90s had some bleed and messiness with some of the mics. It's well known with hihats bleeding into the snare mic, crashes bleeding into the Tom mics, that it's IMPOSSIBLE to get rid of all the bleed - you're just trying to separate the elements ENOUGH that you have some control over them.

That's a completely different thing, and way closer to the 60s method than the modern beat detective sample replacement method.

Oh yeah, you were always riding the rail of eliminating the hats vs. choking off the character of the drum. It helped if when it was all recorded they took steps to minimize by mic placement and choice of hats.

 

[DanTravis62]

Oh yeah, you were always riding the rail of eliminating the hats vs. choking off the character of the drum. It helped if when it was all recorded they took steps to minimize by mic placement and choice of hats.

At least IME working in studios that was always the big battle - especially with jazz drummers and drummers with jazz influence who had their cymbals RIGHT ON TOP of the toms, or the hats on top of the snare

There's going to be some bleed anyways, I think there's something to the youtuber guy's point that that creates an entirely different vibe, where the room the drums are played in actually matters. Not to mention the room reflections that are going to be picked up by the mics anyways.

 

[skoora]

At least IME working in studios that was always the big battle - especially with jazz drummers and drummers with jazz influence who had their cymbals RIGHT ON TOP of the toms, or the hats on top of the snare

There's going to be some bleed anyways, I think there's something to the youtuber guy's point that that creates an entirely different vibe, where the room the drums are played in actually matters. Not to mention the room reflections that are going to be picked up by the mics anyways.

Often had to try and coerce drummers that their 20” and larger mega crashes were going to dominate and ruin the chances of that big drum sound they wanted. “But man, they’re heavy sounding. I need my power crash dude”. No dude, you need people to hear the beat, not a washing machine as you’re also incapable of working a hi hat and lay on your crash 70% of the time”.

 

[BABMusic]

You’re likely noting the differences you hear when bottom-mic’ing a snare and getting a lot of the actual snares ringing out, the little metal wires stretched across the head and are responsible for the “chhh” sound in a snare and not the “bop” sound of hitting a tom. If you don’t mic the bottom of the snare at all it’s harder to hear.

But there’s also some of what you said in your first post; guys like Danny Carey, Mike Portnoy and Brooks Wackerman turn their snares on/off during a song, so it’ll sound like a high pitched tom until they turn the snares back on. Portnoy’s sig snare has an On/mid-way/off setting for the strainer (basically a tuning machine for a snare) so he can utilize 3 different snare sounds live.

You don’t see Danny turn it on until later into the song here-

Someone just gifted me a drum set (Tama) they no longer use, so maybe I'll try recording the snare like this. I'm not really a drummer or percussionist, so it won't be me trying to play all the drums at once. I never knew that snares were recorded under or behind it.

 

[DanTravis62]

Often had to try and coerce drummers that their 20” and larger mega crashes were going to dominate and ruin the chances of that big drum sound they wanted. “But man, they’re heavy sounding. I need my power crash dude”. No dude, you need people to hear the beat, not a washing machine as you’re also incapable of working a hi hat and lay on your crash 70% of the time”.

Oh my god, that hypothetical conversation gave me flashbacks

Especially the whole "big crash and drummer riding on it for half the song" thing is maybe the most surefire way to make the engineer sample replace the snare and kick

 

[Brandonrz]

This is always such an interesting topic to me. Metal production has changed a lot over the years. Some of the conveniences (irs, amp sims, fake drums) are nice in certain instances. For quick demos for me fake drums are sweet because it’s something to play to and get material out as a not serious release. Where it gets bad is when drummers (on major releases) replace their entire performance and fuckin throw 120 velocities on gravity blasts (it’s dumb… it just is). What’s crazier to me is some of these drummers are so good that this bull shit isn’t even necessary (watch an Archspire drummer playthrough… they legitimately sound better than what’s on the album). IRs, amp modeling, all that stuff isn’t changing a performance and can totally be used on major releases and not sound sterile and “the same as everyone else”… with one caveat that they don’t purposely sound like everyone else (the sneap metalcore Tone lol). The performance changing stuff can also get done to guitar… performances thrown to the grid (I’ve seen some sessions the guitars are literally to the grid on fucking tremolo picking at 230 bpm …. Fucking really). Some people in major acts recording damn near note by note on guitar instead of slowing down the tempo 10 bpm because they can’t actually play what they’re recording sequentially…. Yes this happens.

Unfortunately the modern crowd and labels just expect this now. Everything totally snapped to the grid and perfect. Some guys lately that do major releases are fighting back on it which is real cool to see. But it took until the last few years for that to happen… it’s been about 20 years of this shit at this point.

 

[Meanjoegreene]

So do yall think the staleness is mostly in the mixing and mastering ?

Or are the programs capturing the initial sounds making them basically vanilla before any real editing happens?

 

[DanTravis62]

So do yall think the staleness is mostly in the mixing and mastering ?

Or are the programs capturing the initial sounds making them basically vanilla before any real editing happens?

It's not an either or, I'm pretty sure most think it's a combination of both

This is always such an interesting topic to me. Metal production has changed a lot over the years. Some of the conveniences (irs, amp sims, fake drums) are nice in certain instances. For quick demos for me fake drums are sweet because it’s something to play to and get material out as a not serious release. Where it gets bad is when drummers (on major releases) replace their entire performance and fuckin throw 120 velocities on gravity blasts (it’s dumb… it just is). What’s crazier to me is some of these drummers are so good that this bull shit isn’t even necessary (watch an Archspire drummer playthrough… they legitimately sound better than what’s on the album). IRs, amp modeling, all that stuff isn’t changing a performance and can totally be used on major releases and not sound sterile and “the same as everyone else”… with one caveat that they don’t purposely sound like everyone else (the sneap metalcore Tone lol). The performance changing stuff can also get done to guitar… performances thrown to the grid (I’ve seen some sessions the guitars are literally to the grid on fucking tremolo picking at 230 bpm …. Fucking really). Some people in major acts recording damn near note by note on guitar instead of slowing down the tempo 10 bpm because they can’t actually play what they’re recording sequentially…. Yes this happens.

Unfortunately the modern crowd and labels just expect this now. Everything totally snapped to the grid and perfect. Some guys lately that do major releases are fighting back on it which is real cool to see. But it took until the last few years for that to happen… it’s been about 20 years of this shit at this point.

It's funny because i fucking hate archspire, but I have seen their drummer on video before and he's obviously a monster. Think of how much better that band's records could be if they sounded like a legitimate band instead of a guitar pro midi file? I honestly don't even know what they would sound like - better, I'm sure.

The sad part is that it's been 20 years and we haven't gotten the inevitable blowback yet, which makes me feel just exhausted listening to this shit.

 

[Beyond Black]

There are quite a few members stuck in 1985. To be honest at this point it's a helluva lot better than being stuck in 2026.

1985 was a fucking GLORIOUS time for metal, especially the thrash explosion.
Got my drivers license in early 86 and hit every underground show that I could afford to go to.

 

[DanTravis62]

1985 was a fucking GLORIOUS time for metal, especially the thrash explosion.
Got my drivers license in early 86 and hit every underground show that I could afford to go to.

It was one of the best years ever for the actual music, I wouldn't say the production had caught up yet to the music though besides a handful of really well done major label records in 86

It's ironic, because most of those bands were selling out, pretending to be grunge, or pretending to be groove metal by the time the production caught up with the actual music in the 90s

 

[Beyond Black]

It was one of the best years ever for the actual music, I wouldn't say the production had caught up yet to the music though besides a handful of really well done major label records in 86

It's ironic, because most of those bands were selling out, pretending to be grunge, or pretending to be groove metal by the time the production caught up with the actual music in the 90s

Morrisound was the best in the game back then, but not for a few more years after 86.
Burns produced sooooooo many legendary albums.
Like you previously mentioned, some iconic guitar tones (and drum sounds)
He was on fire for a hell of a run.

 

[DanTravis62]

Morrisound was the best in the game back then, but not for a few more years after 86.
Burns produced sooooooo many legendary albums.
Like you previously mentioned, some iconic guitar tones (and drum sounds)
He was on fire for a hell of a run.

Yeah even the one's they did record in 85-86 were excellent musically

Like "Unstoppable Force" and "Crimson Glory"

But the production wasn't there for a few years - I think "Beneath the Remains" and "Arise", the first few Iced Earth records, that was the era when morrisound started to come into it's own production-wise

 

[Klauth]

some of your snare drum questions are answered here.

https://rumble.com/v5g7b2t-the-bell....taps-and-pontification.html?e9s=src_v1_upp_a

 

[Shevek]

You’re likely noting the differences you hear when bottom-mic’ing a snare and getting a lot of the actual snares ringing out, the little metal wires stretched across the head and are responsible for the “chhh” sound in a snare and not the “bop” sound of hitting a tom. If you don’t mic the bottom of the snare at all it’s harder to hear.

But there’s also some of what you said in your first post; guys like Danny Carey, Mike Portnoy and Brooks Wackerman turn their snares on/off during a song, so it’ll sound like a high pitched tom until they turn the snares back on. Portnoy’s sig snare has an On/mid-way/off setting for the strainer (basically a tuning machine for a snare) so he can utilize 3 different snare sounds live.

You don’t see Danny turn it on until later into the song here-

Such a fucking monster drummer. And a great tune. By far the best on that album IMO

 

[Shevek]

Often had to try and coerce drummers that their 20” and larger mega crashes were going to dominate and ruin the chances of that big drum sound they wanted. “But man, they’re heavy sounding. I need my power crash dude”. No dude, you need people to hear the beat, not a washing machine as you’re also incapable of working a hi hat and lay on your crash 70% of the time”.

It's so hard to get a metal drummer to go easy on the brass and hit the drums hard.
Exactly why samples are used for enhancement: the close drum mics are full of cymbal trash, so when you boost the high end on the drum mics, you get a wash of cymbals. Kind of a fun puzzle to make it work.

The extreme solution is to record drums and cymbals separately, like Dave Grohl did on Songs for the Deaf.

 

[VonBonfire]

It's so hard to get a metal drummer to go easy on the brass and hit the drums hard.

That's hard to find in any genre these days. Most dudes are either heavy handed across the board or hit like complete weaklings. In the blues realm the lightweight guys have proliferated so you have drummers who have no audible rimshot, and the timing of the band is all screwed up as a result.

 

[DanTravis62]

That's hard to find in any genre these days. Most dudes are either heavy handed across the board or hit like complete weaklings. In the blues realm the lightweight guys have proliferated so you have drummers who have no audible rimshot, and the timing of the band is all screwed up as a result.

Yeah this is all across genres now. In metal it's literally a step one, first level requirement to hit rimshots all the time, and with blues it depends on the style and the song.

But just like kids growing up on plug-ins and not knowing how to play guitar on an amp, on a stage, in front of people, this has become a "thing" with drummers too. They have spent years learning "enter sandman" and "snow" and whatever gay pop music on Drumeo, and no one has ever taught them rudiments, or basics like grip, or hitting a rimshot.

It's especially difficult with younger cats because they are either super drummers that think they are too good to play in a band, or the bedroom Drumeo warrior who can't hit rimshots

 

[VonBonfire]

Yeah this is all across genres now. In metal it's literally a step one, first level requirement to hit rimshots all the time, and with blues it depends on the style and the song.

I'm guessing it's partly driven by the "mic everything" phenomenon (which doesn't fix the issue) and also by the rise of noise ordinances everywhere. Plus the rise of cheap chinese drum kits has resulted in a lot more drummers out there today which means more bad drummers. Kits used to be pretty pricey stuff compared to entry level guitar/bass gear.

A lot of these guys think they are "tasty" by playing like that. Plus there are more girly men than ever with low grip strength and low testosterone levels. I had a couple guys straight up spite me on stage with that limp wristed stuff intentionally. One of them I saw a couple years later and he admitted getting his ass chewed by a name bandleader over it, and admitted that he was in the wrong. It's def prevalent among younger drummers now. I'd rather not gig than have to gig with a limp wrist. It just leads to shaky time since there is no audible back beat so everything becomes guesswork for the rest of the band.