skoora
Well-known member
I tuned out anything pop after what felt like the tenth year in a row of either boys or girls doing the breathy, overly emotive squeak.
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
To me, by far the worst sin committed in modern music production isn't the relentless quantization to the grid (although that sucks), it's not even the synthetic sounding autotune (although that's a real close second to the most annoying problem with modern production). The worst thing about modern production to me is that almost all producers mix all music so that vocals are at absolute max volume, crank the vocal faders to max and rip them off the board, while literally everything else in the mix sits at about 60% volume.
Also hey now that the vocals are 10x louder than everything else, let's take one more step and split the entire mix into two elements, "vocals" and "not-vocals," then let's put a compressor on the not-vocals mix and use the vocals as the sidechain source so the rest of the track will duck out of the way to the point of almost silence if the singer so much as blinks too loud.
Fuck. That. Shit. I hate it. It sounds like I'm listening to a TV commercial. It's boring, safe, neutered. It feels like somebody is on a dial going "whoa whoa we can't let the song get too exciting or energetic, gotta make sure the only thing the listener hears are the shitty lyrics the signer is singing. The guitars, drums, and bass are only there as a vehicle for letting the singer express some emotions about his girlfriend breaking up with him or whatever." It sucks.
Locking everything to grid and autotuning everything is also a horrible aspect of modern production and deserves all the ridicule it gets, but for me, the modern "vocals are the only thing that matters" style mixer/producer philosophy is particularly eggregious and needs to go.
Also hey now that the vocals are 10x louder than everything else, let's take one more step and split the entire mix into two elements, "vocals" and "not-vocals," then let's put a compressor on the not-vocals mix and use the vocals as the sidechain source so the rest of the track will duck out of the way to the point of almost silence if the singer so much as blinks too loud.
Fuck. That. Shit. I hate it. It sounds like I'm listening to a TV commercial. It's boring, safe, neutered. It feels like somebody is on a dial going "whoa whoa we can't let the song get too exciting or energetic, gotta make sure the only thing the listener hears are the shitty lyrics the signer is singing. The guitars, drums, and bass are only there as a vehicle for letting the singer express some emotions about his girlfriend breaking up with him or whatever." It sucks.
Locking everything to grid and autotuning everything is also a horrible aspect of modern production and deserves all the ridicule it gets, but for me, the modern "vocals are the only thing that matters" style mixer/producer philosophy is particularly eggregious and needs to go.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
This is especially annoying and shitty for bands that have extreme vocals - whether metalcore, real metal, whatever. They use the same ducking and side chaining thing they do with Doja cat or whatever with Kublai Khan
It's like the producer doesn't understand what the vocals are supposed to be FOR in extreme music
They are supposed to be a rhythm instrument that adds some texture and "feel" to the sound of the band, this isn't fucking Frank Sinatra
Every single one of the bands I posted as an example of "data" music above are guilty of this.
Uzi Nein Millimetah
Well-known member
Pro-Tools was also when Rush started becoming extremely uninteresting to me also. I like the purity of the 3 of them in one room jamming at Le Studio in the early days.....
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
Yeah man it's awful. Some of the best mixes I've heard are ones where the vocals are mixed down a bit and blended with the instruments so they swim around along with everything else. Everything sounds huge that way.
And yeah like you said, the vocals in heavy music are supposed to be just one more element of a larger sound. With heavier music, then entire track is usually meant to be representative of a state of mind, where the vocals are just a singular element of a larger picture, often just there for rhythmic or textural effect. They're meant to be a part of a whole. They're not supposed to be front and fucking center like the band revolves around an angry slam poet.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
It's so obnoxious because it's so unbelievably obvious the way that this is supposed to be done in a mix - it has quite literally been done that way for the entire history of extreme metal, hardcore punk, etc, since people started screaming in music.
It's supposed to sound like this
And this
And even this
I seriously don't know how and why this started, but it makes modern brand name "screamy" music almost impossible to listen to compared to the old music and the super underground bands who do it correctly
There are still bands who do this right, like Profanatica
But the screaming vocals in those bands I posted responding to shadow are horrific to listen to; I don't know why this started or how it became a thing
BABMusic
Well-known member
@TheGreatGreen Yeah, I now look back and see auto tune vocals as the first step towards AI music. I hated it back then and still can't stand it. It takes away all the human-ness in the music. Even Metallica has mistakes on their classic albums Ride the lightning and Puppets -- it's just part of the art.
RaceU4her
Well-known member
fuck em
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
I don't know how it happens these days either. Like, it's immediately apparent, it's the first thing you hear. I have no idea how the whole band doesn't yell in unison at the producer to cut that shit out the second they hear it.
Just went and listened to those clips and haha jesus they're all awful.
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DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Yeah I wasn't exaggerating at all
They all make the same mistake; trying to mix extreme vocals the same way you would do a normal singer. In some situations they are even more extreme with it - like when it sounds like they are doing side-chain ducking, like you would do with a singer-songwriter or some style of music where the entire focus is the singing and lyrics.
What's odd is how obvious it is how "Wrong" it sounds when compared to earlier bands, when apparently producers knew how to mix harsh vocals for maximum impact.
CJ7
Member
I like a lot of modern produced metal.
The problem with the bands you linked in the quote is that these are all "pop" metal bands. They're the generic Great Value of modern -core bands. And none of them are exciting regardless of production.
A lot of good stuff can have highly polished productions. I'm a big fan of that modern tech sound bands like Archspire, Obsidious, Pronostic, or Dissocia have. Very polished and good.
I also like the less polished stuff, someone posted Death, I'll add bands like older BTBAM, Spawn of Possession, and Necrophagist to the less polished list that sound great.
Maybe it's because the 80s and 90s predate me, or maybe it's nostalgia on a lot of your part. Or more than likely somewhere in the middle.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
I don't think it's nostalgia, as I came of age during the time this became en vogue - if anything I should be positively predisposed to it, because the seminal records I grew up listening to, that were concurrent with my impressionable teenage mind, were the very Fredman and Sneap records that started this as a "thing."
I think it's likely that the generations after me (and I'm guessing you are part of this) simply have never known "metal" without this being the default production. Of course you don't have a problem with it; it's been the default for your entire life. Whereas for me, this was an "option" among infinite varieties of production style.
CJ7
Member
Could be, as I said, it could very well be that it's because the 80s and 90s predate me (born in '98). I also don't listen to much of anything produced prior to the 2000. What, then, would make a production more enjoyable and less generic without forsaking a good production, in your opinion? I'm teaching myself mixing so I'm curious.
And whoever said EMGs -> 808 -> 5150 -> V30 -> SM57 nailed it. While I prefer other amps over the 5150, I grew up on this sound. While I'm still searching for my sound, and I do love the aforementioned sound, I'm trying so hard to not fall in this trap.
RaceU4her
Well-known member
i just put this on for the first time in years, this was one of the soundtracks of 1998 and being 15 for me. it just sounds so superb to 99% of the shit i hear today, and i dont think thats notsalgia
Beyond Black
Well-known member
Agree 1000%.
I really dig the Pretty Reckless and love Taylor’s voice, and the new album actually pisses me off how on top of the mix the vocals are, it’s ridiculous. Vocals drop out the overall volume decreases by half….
I dig vocals at the same level as every other instrument in the mix.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
That was me
and it isn't that the 5150 sounds bad - far from it, it's just that specific style and tone has been done to death to the point that it's a meme.So a bunch of it has been mentioned in the thread so far:
1. If there are harsh vocals, don't mix them as if they are clean vocals. Make them sit back and be a part of the whole mix. This mixing philosophy has been cited by multiple people in this thread (including me) as something that turns you off to a recording instantly.
2. Drums are an acoustic instrument, and the sound of them in a room or space is what sounds natural to the listener. Real drums are obviously the best, but if you have to use fake drums try giving them some ambience to make it seem like they exist in an actual space or room that exists. The whole "dry and tight", inhumanly big and full frequency nature of drums makes them sound ridiculous in almost every recording we have made fun of.
3. Don't quantize. Anything. Just don't do it. If you (or the artist) can't play it that tight, then they can't play it. The little sections that slightly drag are part of what makes it sound like actual humans are actually performing. That's why none of the TOTALLY CRAZY RIFFS™ on these modern records have the memorability and life of the older riffs.
4. Try finding sounds for each piece of the mix that sound great together without worrying about what is "correct." Everything always sounds too big, too full, too slick, and therefore always has the same frequencies representative and sounds exactly the fucking same. That's part of why all "modern metal" sounds the same.
5. Avoid the 808/5150/V30/57 combination like the plague. Switch up other elements to make a tone your own. This combination has been done to death so badly that people simply tune out music that sounds like it.
6. Try mixing to a creative vision of what the song is, or the band is, instead of what is "correct." At this rate we're never going to get another "individual thought patterns" or "heart work" or "slaughter of the soul" because engineers would be too afraid of using the "wrong" sounds - those sounds became iconic because the engineers and producer made it work with what they had. They could have made chuck get rid of his valve state. They could have asked amott to use a different cabinet. They could have asked bjorler to stop using the metal zone/hm2, and those records would have been '"more correct" but they would not be identifiable or unique.
I'm sure other people can add a bunch of good ones, but that's just the first couple that are off the top of my head.
skoora
Well-known member
What’s really crazy to me is how little music has changed in the last 20 years where from the 50’s up through the 90’s popular music and even rock and metal had sea changes every 4-5 years. Sometimes quicker. Even the legend, long time artists, who started in the 60’s and early 70’s would change their production techniques and arrangements to suit the times. Today a metal band could be 20 years old and if you gave me three of their albums from different times of their career, I wouldn’t remotely be able to tell you what might be what. It would all sound too similar.
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DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
That's part of why it seems so obvious to me that the "modern metal" production style is burnt toast, and needs to be changed up - those "Sea changes" as you called it are evolution instead of stagnation
Like, I know i've talked about it before, but I try to make all my demo tracks sound like they were recorded in the late 80s or early 90s, specifically because I think that sound is conducive to the music I make - why does everyone have to sound like they have the same production as "Dead heart in a dead world"?
Every fucking band, no matter what genre they are, for the last 20 years, sounds like they were waiting in the studio after KSE recorded "The End of Heartache" and picked up the sticks and picks and just kept recording. It makes me feel like i'm going insane when people say they can't hear it.
