DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Tons of bands have done it here, including a couple of mine. In the punk scene here this is considered the "legit" way to do a tape/reel to reel/analog record because you're playing relatively uncomplicated music.
Tons of bands have done it here, including a couple of mine. In the punk scene here this is considered the "legit" way to do a tape/reel to reel/analog record because you're playing relatively uncomplicated music.
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Consider yourself fortunate. I go into a "studio" here and a lot of them barely have any outboard gear let alone a well oiled reel to reel. After getting ass burned by complete unprofessionalism two out of the last three trips we just bought a tascam digital board, a few half decent mics, and started tracking our own stuff. Got results on par with any previous stuff, better in a lot of ways since I wasn't under the gun for tracking or mixing. My kid has a decent set of monitors and quite a few real nice plug-ins to work with. I'd say the weak spot wasn't having a treated room for vocals. I'm thinking about an SM7 or RE20 for vox next time.Bro they are everywhere here
I don't know if it's a hipster thing or what but probably half of all commercial studios have them
And almost all private/home studios have them - I'm something of an anomaly in my area, as I generally only do analog/tape fuckery for live drum kits then do the rest of the tracks in the box. Most people I'm aware of do "live" two track to tape, OR digital, either or.
Speeddemon
Well-known member
RE20 for vocals is an acquired taste. I sold mine. Still have an SM7B. So far, on the cheap I was happy with an MXL V67G (after modding the PCB for a bit) and an Audio Technica AT4047SV. That one sounds way more expensive than it is, through a good preamp (SPL Channel One).
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Can you tell me what you didn't like about the RE20?
I tracked vocals last time using a Rode NTK. Not horrible but probably could've benefited from a treated room. I just have one of those foam shields mounted onto the stand.
I did a couple radio shows at a station down in San Antone and they mic'ed my vocal and my acoustic with two RE20's and it sounded really good, good enough that he still spins the performance during one of his jazz and blues shows on occasion, but I do not know what kind of preamps or other equipment was in the chain so I'm kind of at a loss there.
Speeddemon
Well-known member
It is quite neutral and there's almost no proximity effect that you can use to your advantage. Also quite characterless.
I prefer some form of 'soothing' quality in a vocal mix. Not dull or fake warmth, but slightly juicy. The AT4047SV has that, even though it has a higher 'resolution' than some cheaper hyped condensers.
Back in the day (home recording BBS, JC and Gearslutz) I also got the Alan Hyatt promoted Studio Projects mics; the C1 and a pair of B3's. Good to start out with, but at a certain point you start to notice their shortcomings.
I purposely skipped the NTK myself and got a K2, where I have still some upgrade tubes lying around for... Amperex and Philips JAN 6922 I believe. Also got a pair of NT-5s for acoustics or drum OH. Quite nice.
CJ7
Member
It's not as if I've never heard 80s / 90s music, but I'm just not a fan of a lot of it. I was just asking for advice to help keep me from sounding generic, and Dan delivered.
Also, I couldn't cookie cut copy a mix even if I wanted to, I'm barely starting to learn lol
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback. The K2 is definitely superior to the NTK, I've used both it's just that I've owned an NTK since 2006 so it's what I had to work with for my recording last time. I haven't really found "my" mic yet so I'm still looking around. The number of options out there is mind boggling.
Speeddemon
Well-known member
Two of my cheaper mics that sounded versatile, interesting and more expensive were the AKG D330BT (the infamous "Abba" mic, with the nice mini switches) and a Beyer Dynamic M88TG, which also sounds amazing on guitar cabs.
Could be interesting for ya on the used market; I bought most of my mics used too.
Shask
Well-known member
I have only heard of half of those, but I find them pretty boring personally. I was never much of a fan of instrumental guitar music like Vai or Satriani either though. They have some cool moments, but it starts to feel very robotic after awhile, IMO.
Funny enough, most of the newer heavy stuff I like is the non-normal stuff that is coming out these days. Stuff like this:
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LeftOurEyes
Member
I think the single biggest thing that influenced the direction of production was budgets. There used to be a lot of experimentation in getting tones, especially the drums and guitars. There used to be artist development in everything from songwriting to stage presence. Bands would hire the best staff, which resulted in a lot of behind the scenes collaborations. Bands would even bring in people from other bands just to jam out ideas and such. They took the time they needed to make something great and along with spending this much time on each aspect it showed in the final product.
With budgets so small now it has cascaded into all sorts of small problems that collectively created sterility.
-Band now often dont even live in the same area and just email parts to each other so there is no collaboration in writing of any kind.
-Producers use preset everything because of time and money constraints, so they stick with what they know works.
-Takes are comped to all hell because the musicians can't actually play the songs like a robot. Comping takes always existed but now like one verse could be 50 different takes with little half second snippets of the best takes clipped together to make a "perfect take."
-The tone of the the instruments used to come from the band working with the producer, now they just DI everything when recording and the producer chooses all the tones when reamping guitar/bass and which samples used for drums mostly eliminating the bands tonal input. There isn't money in the budget to try 50 different snare/bass drum combinations while in the studio anymore and all tonal choices are made quickly.
There was other things too like the whole drum samples leading to HEAVY compression. Drum samples themselves aren't bad but having each instrument isolated in a kit with no bleed you can compress the hell out of it to get it to slam harder without background noise also getting louder. This became a war like the loudness wars, who could get their trackes to slam the hardest. For some styles this can be cool, but it is overused and should not be in every production.
Now the younger generation has grown up on overly compressed, perfectly timed music and it is all they know so they think that if it doesn't sound like that then it isn't professional. They also all seem to want to sound the exact same (along with how they think and they act), their generation's trend mostly is to fit in rather than be unique so I don't really see things swinging back the other way for awhile.
With budgets so small now it has cascaded into all sorts of small problems that collectively created sterility.
-Band now often dont even live in the same area and just email parts to each other so there is no collaboration in writing of any kind.
-Producers use preset everything because of time and money constraints, so they stick with what they know works.
-Takes are comped to all hell because the musicians can't actually play the songs like a robot. Comping takes always existed but now like one verse could be 50 different takes with little half second snippets of the best takes clipped together to make a "perfect take."
-The tone of the the instruments used to come from the band working with the producer, now they just DI everything when recording and the producer chooses all the tones when reamping guitar/bass and which samples used for drums mostly eliminating the bands tonal input. There isn't money in the budget to try 50 different snare/bass drum combinations while in the studio anymore and all tonal choices are made quickly.
There was other things too like the whole drum samples leading to HEAVY compression. Drum samples themselves aren't bad but having each instrument isolated in a kit with no bleed you can compress the hell out of it to get it to slam harder without background noise also getting louder. This became a war like the loudness wars, who could get their trackes to slam the hardest. For some styles this can be cool, but it is overused and should not be in every production.
Now the younger generation has grown up on overly compressed, perfectly timed music and it is all they know so they think that if it doesn't sound like that then it isn't professional. They also all seem to want to sound the exact same (along with how they think and they act), their generation's trend mostly is to fit in rather than be unique so I don't really see things swinging back the other way for awhile.
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skoora
Well-known member
At first this would be true but now it’s the opposite regarding time and resources. With all the tools available to every member of the band There’s no excuse for them as they all the time they could want to find their sounds and with the ease of exporting and sharing DAW projects they can spend as much time as they want perfecting a take or figuring out arrangements ideas. They don’t need to do this on studio time anymore.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Agreed. The budget/time thing was 100% true 10 or 15 years ago, but that is nowhere near accurate now. You could do a "professional" sounding recording with almost no budget and unlimited time in 2026.
It's a combination of sheer laziness, and because an entire generation of people (like perhaps CJ and other younger peeps) will say it doesn't sound "professional" if it doesn't sound like it was recorded at the same sessions for "The End of Heartache."
Everyone has unlimited time and unlimited creative license to do quite literally whatever the fuck they want and yet 96% of bands just churn out trite slop like that Rings of Saturn song I posted earlier.
Mike Oxhuge
Well-known member
I definitely don't think budgets are the issue. Listen to 72 Seasons by Metallica and compare it to Kill em all. Kill em all is way better sounding and produced and was on a shoestring budget in 1983. Not to even mention the song writing.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Yeah I think the budget excuse is just trying to shift responsibility to the suits because they are dicks and a convenient target, and it's easy to blame them for everything.
Yes, obviously that would be on-brand if it was all their fault, but it simply isn't
That just self-evidently isn't the case and there's a million examples
It's a combination of laziness, monkey-see monkey-do, and cultural inertia - and then it becomes the fault of musicians and producers, which aren't as easy of a target
Techdeth
RESIDENT ROCK PROFESSOR
Deftones around the fur production is just perfect . That guitar tone a top all time
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Techdeth
RESIDENT ROCK PROFESSOR
I agree
CJ7
Member
I know I'm only being used as a young person example and not being directly singled out, but I dislike Rings of Saturn and dislike The End of Heartache lol I also like records with a more unique mix as well.
For example, take Spawn of Possession's 2012 album Incurso. Fantastic album. I love the sound. But it's very different to the average album from that time.
I also enjoy Death's albums and sound on Human, Individual Thought Patterns, and Symbolic. None of which are the ultra modern productions. Someone said At the Gates and In Flames. While I'm not a huge fan of either, TSD, Slaughter of the Soul, and for In Flames, Jester Race (specifically) sound great. I just also think that while they're unique sounding and good, they could probably be cleaned up a little.
Between the Buried and Me did rereleases of everything from their debut album through The Great Misdirect in 2020, and while I enjoy the originals very much, I also see the increased clarity of individual instruments that the 2020 editions brought out.
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LeftOurEyes
Member
I wasn't saying that musicians don't have time, I said they don't have the budget to work with professionals for very long. Just because someone has the tools doesn't mean they know how to use them. Some people learn and get great but most musicians I know just want to write songs.
I am not blaming anyone just stating the fact that budgets shrunk. With less money meant less time the bands worked with other people. I think you are underestimating the value of collaboration in making timeless records. I have listened to so many interviews with my favorite bands and have been surprised how involved the producers or other people hired to work with the bands were. From song arrangements to lyrics some of the most iconic songs made would never have existed if it was just a guy or 2 in a bedroom even if they had the right equipment. Also if you do not have outside opinions you often run into the problem that I mention below.
I was saying that budgets are the main issue not the only issue. Metallica's problem is a problem that a lot of rich and famous people have which is they surround themselves with "Yes" men telling them that everything they do is great and their shit don't stink. They need someone being critical of their work but they people around them don't want to say anything and make them angry.
This may be what perpetuates it today but that is not what started the trend in the first place.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Yes, in my response to @skoora above I said that while that may have been the case in the infancy of digital, it certainly isn't the case now. There's just a million examples that run counter to that argument.
And I (and everyone else) am stating the fact that the budgets that shrunk, aren't necessary anymore for a quality product.
That is definitely the case with a Lady Gaga record, or even an Ozzy record, but it is not even close to being the case with any of the heavy metal records that we are talking about. That's trying to apply the same logic that works in Capital or Virgin records with death metal bands. And not only that, in some cases, many of these famous extreme metal records were literally created by "a guy or two in a bedroom."
