H
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
That's not what takes up the space 99% of the time so I don't know what you're listening to. It's generally the gigantic, dry drum samples, and the screaming 12db louder than the rest of the band doing that. The guitars are generally high and low passed within an inch of their life, so even if there are 16 tracks hard panned for the rhythm it would objectively make up like 7% of the space in the mix.
And honestly even with drum samples and amp plug ins, you could still make a recording that has some personality - like I laid out earlier, this is a problem of creativity, not of technology.
CJ7
Member
I guess that depends on your music of choice. Generally the only time I'm going pre-2000 is for Jazz or Fusion (Holdsworth, MacAlpine, Howe). But I listen to mostly Tech Death or the more modern instrumental prog and shred (AAL, Intervals, Scale the Summit, Tigran, Their Dogs Were Astronauts, etc.).
Noch
Member
i think much of it also has to do with the modality of recording being so plug in dominant. very rare to think when listening they had mic'd a cab. people move mic's on a screen now. i have a big bias for analog.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
That may be part of it, sure
I don't think it's because of the plug-ins themselves though - I think it's because people get lazy because of the plug ins
And it's not like that with just guitar stuff, I think it works that way for all digital. That it isn't inherently the problem with digital itself, but the way that people get lazy with digital solutions to problems
Rackman
Well-known member
Digital as a recording medium is awesome - tape is a huge pain in the ass. It's just expensive to get enough digital channels to do drums well, but that's always been true.
Digital as an editing and mixing medium has upsides and downsides. But I find it more positive than negative. I use mostly outboard with a small amount of stock plugins in locations I consider non-critical though.
Digital as an editing and mixing medium has upsides and downsides. But I find it more positive than negative. I use mostly outboard with a small amount of stock plugins in locations I consider non-critical though.
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skoora
Well-known member
I don’t think It’s wholly a budget issue, more a laziness and talent issue. Even with a budget the people making those killer records were very talented with good ears and sensibilities. They certainly could make a great sounding record in the box, even now, without a big room and the 3K mic’s and pre’s, outboard gear etc. The price of entry dropped radically and it has allowed a flood of people who were never going to be that creative or take the time and care to craft something special.
Just someone who really knows how to tune a kit and what cymbals and heads to use is going to get a killer result in a small room or somewhat treated basement. Or at least someone who really knows how to deep dive into drum software and give it some feeling. So many of the records sound like they literally loaded a preset and hit record. No tweaking, no time to mess with things to shake it up.
Lot of “engineers” it seems took some dude’s advice on a YT video short and then go on autopilot for every application.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Yep, blaming it on the budget and digital is ironically lazy thinking IMO - there's plenty of records that we were all gushing about a couple pages ago in the thread that were recorded in the box, and on shoestring budgets. Even in the 90s.
I personally go absolutely insane doing deeply programmed, as-lifelike-as-possible drums, and I'm pretty sure there's tons of other people that do too.
It seems like that is blaming it on the tools, instead of the people who take shortcuts with the tools
Klauth
Active member
Something to be aware of is that's rarely talked about (most likely because its complex) is bad plug ins. I got turned on to this knowledge by a producer engineer that's in the know and the game. some of them have phase issues (amongst other issues). Ive tracked enough 4x12 cabs with mics to hear it pretty quick. plug ins don't have a specification like hardware does. and there is no standard it has to be held by/to. in most cases users don't know what's actually going on behind the glass, and so, most likely won't hear when something isn't "right" but what's important is. they didn't have to leave the house (or chair) to track their ultimate sound with the IR they got from (....fill in the blank) it just gets worse and worse when you're in the digital realm, and most likely you/they won't know why, as there is no way to trouble shoot. my heart goes out to those who fell for the plugin/IR thing. but I get why they did.
Noch
Member
true, rather unfortunate.
V
VonBonfire
Well-known member
I'll take tape's hassles and tone over the ease of digital with all the harshness that comes with the territory. The problem is without a hearty budget tape is not really very viable anymore.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
It depends on what kind of tape and what type of recording
There's a bunch of local bands who have recorded onto analog tape, even in my local scene
The reason people don't do it is moreso because you have to actually practice and everyone has to play the track perfectly - and obviously everyone is lazy as fuck. The dude who engineered my punk bands last few records does 1/4" reel to reel records all the time - and it isn't giant bands on labels with hearty budgets most of the time. It's mostly bands who practice a bunch and are really tight (and mostly bands who play relatively uncomplex music)
Rackman
Well-known member
That's only an issue when dealing with tape with low track counts. With 2" the bigger issue is just keeping the machine running, tape cost etc. And of course space for that behemoth.
V
VonBonfire
Well-known member
It's been a long time since I've seen anyone with a legitimate working tape machine in their studio.It depends on what kind of tape and what type of recording
There's a bunch of local bands who have recorded onto analog tape, even in my local scene
The reason people don't do it is moreso because you have to actually practice and everyone has to play the track perfectly - and obviously everyone is lazy as fuck. The dude who engineered my punk bands last few records does 1/4" reel to reel records all the time - and it isn't giant bands on labels with hearty budgets most of the time. It's mostly bands who practice a bunch and are really tight (and mostly bands who play relatively uncomplex music)
skoora
Well-known member
Live to two track was always a ballsy move, even back in the day. Works if you’re a well oiled machine and don’t need a bunch of fader moves etc.It depends on what kind of tape and what type of recording
There's a bunch of local bands who have recorded onto analog tape, even in my local scene
The reason people don't do it is moreso because you have to actually practice and everyone has to play the track perfectly - and obviously everyone is lazy as fuck. The dude who engineered my punk bands last few records does 1/4" reel to reel records all the time - and it isn't giant bands on labels with hearty budgets most of the time. It's mostly bands who practice a bunch and are really tight (and mostly bands who play relatively uncomplex music)
jabps
Well-known member
Then listen to stuff before 2000 to increase your vocabulary. Ton's of amazing production before then from metal to pop. I mean some of the greatest guitars sounds ever recorded were done before then. Research.
Bottom line, don't copy the cookie cutter mix right now. Go back, study how those great tones were achieved back in the day, then mix in the modern aspect that you grew up on. Try something different. Bottom line if people don't want everything to sound the same, stop trying to achieve the same thing. Create your own thing.
Speeddemon
Well-known member
[scratches throat]
To be fair, I have the N4522... the true stereo one. I would only swap it for a Studer/Revox PR99MKII or MKIII, but hey, I can still record at 15ips.Funny story; I once recorded an 128kbps mp3 from a PC via mini-jack onto a Minidisc. Then hooked up that Minidisc (with additional ATRAC compression) to the Philips RTR; recorded it to tape, quite hot, and I shit you not, that mp3 sounded *better*.
Oh, and FWIW, I don't have a problem with recording to a digital medium; I do it myself to a IDE or SATA HDD via the Alesis HD24XR. But I treat that thing like a nice tape-recorder. Same probably for people who used EZ Radar.
But ProTools was like Apple; Digidesign wanted to lock you in with THEIR preamps, with THEIR interface, THEIR controller, etc. Hell no.
And I don't do the whole 'oh just pick the best take of the verse/chorus and copy it a few times'. Nope. Play the whole song. In one take, do some punch-ins, I don't care, but if your song is 4m35s long, there's gonna be at least 4m35s of your guitar/bass/drums/vox recorded on 'tape' (well maybe muted during instrumental parts...but y'all catch my drift).
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VonBonfire
Well-known member
Very nice bro, heck yeah![scratches throat]
View attachment 457462
Funny story; I once recorded an 128kbps mp3 from a PC via mini-jack onto a Minidisc. Then hooked up that Minidisc (with additional ATRAC compression) to the Philips RTR; recorded it to tape, quite hot, and I shit you not, that mp3 sounded *better*.
Oh, and FWIW, I don't have a problem with recording to a digital medium; I do it myself to a IDE or SATA HDD via the Alesis HD24XR. But I treat that thing like a nice tape-recorder. Same probably for people who used EZ Radar.
But ProTools was like Apple; Digidesign wanted to lock you in with THEIR preamps, with THEIR interface, THEIR controller, etc. Hell no.
And I don't do the whole 'oh just pick the best take of the verse/chorus and copy it a few times'. Nope. Play the whole song. In one take, do some punch-ins, I don't care, but if your song is 4m35s long, there's gonna be at least 4m35s of your guitar/bass/drums/vox recorded on 'tape' (well maybe muted during instrumental parts...but y'all catch my drift).
Even with digital I'm not into copy/paste or screwing around with the performance other than minor stuff. I'd rather just re-cut the offending tracks.
I went to an expensive studio and specifically told the guy "don't cut and paste anything". A few hours later I caught his intern cutting and pasting a rhythm guitar track smh. I called the engineer out on it and he acted like a bitch the rest of the session. Clown.
Klauth
Active member
I still use my adats (they still work) as does my mackie HDR. reapers cool too but, so complicated, comparatively.
DanTravis62
Moderator
Moderator
Bro they are everywhere here
I don't know if it's a hipster thing or what but probably half of all commercial studios have them
And almost all private/home studios have them - I'm something of an anomaly in my area, as I generally only do analog/tape fuckery for live drum kits then do the rest of the tracks in the box. Most people I'm aware of do "live" two track to tape, OR digital, either or.
