WOW... I just got banned from HCAF!!

[grunge782]

I'm not really sure I understand this "You can be a good Christian, but don't force it on other people". If your world view is that people without your religion are going to be in eternal pain and anguish (at least 60 percent of the world) after about 100 years of life, don't you have a responsibility as a "moral" person to convince them to convert to your religion? It seems hypocritical.

You don't understand the difference between telling someone what you believe and forcing your beliefs on them?

1. What do you consider "force"? That is where it really starts to break down for me. Just because it isn't a physical confrontation, doesn't mean it becomes a forced action. There are some proposed rhetorical theories that words are themselves actions. For instance, if someone decides they want to leave the church, their family becomes disappointed or far from their offspring. The family sees them as pulling away from a righteous path, and the offspring feels like he/she is losing trust and acceptance from their family. This can GREATLY alter someone's life, into a perceived physical action, such as the terrible act of suicide if the isolation and distance becomes extreme enough. How is the Christian family supposed to support someone like that? It's ok, we still love you if you want to continue your path into straying from God and live eternity in Hell with the one who is considered the source of all problems in this world?

Read the New Testament. What you describe happens all over the place. Many of Paul's letters include some forms of rebuke for straying too far from the truth. And this was just a few decades after Jesus. All you can do is love people and pray that they will turn toward the narrow path. You are right in that nobody can, effectively, force religion on another. The greatest commandment Jesus gave was to love your neighbor as yourself.

I take that as meaning anyone; straight, gay, black, white, green, jazz, country... . Hate the sin, love the sinner.

I have read the New Testament. You basically just told me that this issue is resolved by free will, but at the same time at the control of an all controlling originator of your decisions through prayer. This plays into the key perception of free will, you observing it as existing with a Supreme Creator and I believing that its an irresolvable paradox.
Personally I would rather have a rebuke from an opinion or analysis formed by you, in the current state of this world and perception of Christianity than dredging up arguments that I've seen as many times as I've seen it rain.

I still have yet to see an explanation for how to simply accept the current state of believers vs. non-believers eternal future which within any major religion would be a minority compared to the entire world population. People are dying right now, and the odds say their afterlife is not going to be a pleasant experience.

And if you were to love your neighbor as yourself, would you not pull, scream, kick, and even claw your hands into your back until it bleeds if it means to stop yourself from eternal damnation? Or would you silently sit with your back facing your mirror human in prayer as your other self slips under his own ignorance into eternal pain?

 

[marvcus]

I dont understand the question. Im not trying to be difficult but a woman is a woman and a man is a man. Its simple really Creation AND evolution MOCK homosexuality so ? ? Im sorry I dont understand the question

What I am saying is that by the standards of the previous statement you made, we are all sinners and thus in the same boat as homosexuals on a certain level. However, the Bible states that homosexuality is considered a sin where as a man being with a woman is not so there is an stated bias of "evil" against their sexual desires. By your most recent statement you seem to be under the impression that this is a natural and comfortable perception of God's judgement on human sexuality, and homosexuals are simply blocking the road of creation and evolution (*even though there are some animals that are homosexual as well besides homo sapiens).

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_and_Silo

The Bible also says that a man looking at a woman to lust after her is committing adultery in his heart. I'll be the first to say that, as a man, I'm guilty of that. If I willingly looked at porn 24/7 on the web, would that mean I am just as bad as what a homosexual does, albeit in a different context? I do not believe sin has levels or degrees of severity. I think to God, sin is sin.

 

[grunge782]

I dont understand the question. Im not trying to be difficult but a woman is a woman and a man is a man. Its simple really Creation AND evolution MOCK homosexuality so ? ? Im sorry I dont understand the question

What I am saying is that by the standards of the previous statement you made, we are all sinners and thus in the same boat as homosexuals on a certain level. However, the Bible states that homosexuality is considered a sin where as a man being with a woman is not so there is an stated bias of "evil" against their sexual desires. By your most recent statement you seem to be under the impression that this is a natural and comfortable perception of God's judgement on human sexuality, and homosexuals are simply blocking the road of creation and evolution (*even though there are some animals that are homosexual as well besides homo sapiens).

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_and_Silo

The Bible also says that a man looking at a woman to lust after her is committing adultery in his heart. I'll be the first to say that, as a man, I'm guilty of that. If I willingly looked at porn 24/7 on the web, would that mean I am just as bad as what a homosexual does, albeit in a different context? I do not believe sin has levels or degrees of severity. I think to God, sin is sin.

What about lust after your own wife? If that isn't a sin, then was it the first time you met her? What if you remarry?

Don't kid yourself, it says lying with another man is a sin (even if faithful), no where does it say that lying with a woman in a faithful sense (such as being married) is a sin. Either all joy in sex is considered a sin (which doesn't make much sense in terms of the survival of humans) or the Bible promotes 2 of the same sex together as unholy.

 

[jerrydyer]

You said you read the new testament. If you have you would know that even a homosexual can go to Heaven if he turns form it. Yeah we are in the same boat but Ive accepted the gift of salvation throug Jesus therefore, sins forgiven. Your just twisting stuff up. What is your exact point and position. Either way its fine. You have a free will. Do what you want. Regarding your point that if we know that someone is going to hell, then we should be extra forceful? no. we can ony do what we can and then just put it up to prayer.

 

[headlessdeadguy]

My look what you started Pete.

 

[just42dave]

WOW

 

[jerrydyer]

yeah dammit

 

[Suhr]

Im not a christian

How come posts like this seem to be going on?
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... ?t=2422043

 

[ejecta]

Then you get into the argument of free will, which in my opinion is another paradox with an all knowing, timeless creator.

Not when the creator gave you the ability to have free will.

 

[jerrydyer]

exaclty..God doesnt think inside our box.

 

[ihave27frets]

i think it's funny how atheists seem to get all worked to the point of being hostile for no reason. whatever, it's all good

yeah, because its so common to see atheists going door to door wanting to tell you about science and approaching people in public with their silly little tales and hand outs.

 

[jerrydyer]

here
lets laugh about something
http://www.hulu.com/watch/1610/saturday ... v-funhouse

 

[ihave27frets]

Im not a christian

How come posts like this seem to be going on?
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... ?t=2422043

Exactly! because she looks better than me I guess

 

[grunge782]

Then you get into the argument of free will, which in my opinion is another paradox with an all knowing, timeless creator.

Not when the creator gave you the ability to have free will.

This is becoming a theological carousel

If you are thrown into a world with a certain mind and soul, with the world already created before you enter it, how do you possibly have the tinniest bit of free will? All your actions and thoughts would be determined by the mind and soul you were given in the environment that was created for you. You didn't have the slightest say in either.

 

[jerrydyer]

Then you get into the argument of free will, which in my opinion is another paradox with an all knowing, timeless creator.

Not when the creator gave you the ability to have free will.

This is becoming a theological carousel

If you are thrown into a world with a certain mind and soul, with the world already created before you enter it, how do you possibly have the tinniest bit of free will? All your actions and thoughts would be determined by the mind and soul you were given in the environment that was created for you. You didn't have the slightest say in either.

wrong your just wrong once again your applying human logic to Gods creativety. Waste of time.

 

[ejecta]

Then you get into the argument of free will, which in my opinion is another paradox with an all knowing, timeless creator.

Not when the creator gave you the ability to have free will.

This is becoming a theological carousel

If you are thrown into a world with a certain mind and soul, with the world already created before you enter it, how do you possibly have the tinniest bit of free will? All your actions and thoughts would be determined by the mind and soul you were given in the environment that was created for you. You didn't have the slightest say in either.

Regardless of whether you think you should have had a choice in whether you were born..... did you not choose to post in this thread?

 

[grunge782]

You said you read the new testament. If you have you would know that even a homosexual can go to Heaven if he turns form it. Yeah we are in the same boat but Ive accepted the gift of salvation throug Jesus therefore, sins forgiven. Your just twisting stuff up. What is your exact point and position. Either way its fine. You have a free will. Do what you want. Regarding your point that if we know that someone is going to hell, then we should be extra forceful? no. we can ony do what we can and then just put it up to prayer.

So I guess when the homosexual goes to heaven he/she snubs out years of his/her identity and becomes a good ol holy straight guy/gal right?

The point I'm making is in my opinion there exists a blatant hypocrisy and backtracking in the statements from modern Christians. It's this strange mutated child that was created between the Medieval theological thought and the Age of Reason. I can't grasp how people accept SOME of these values without it collapsing in on itself. And not to be mean, but after 12 years of being in the Church, I still don't see a new rebuke for either point.

"No we can only do what we can and then just put it up to prayer" That specific sentence cleared up things for me

So when free will fails, we hope God intervenes an already hoaxed life?

Let me say that I am very glad that a good plate of Christians today are open to new opinions and free speech, but you can't keep blanketing these lingering questions in a vague fog of self assurance for the sake of confidence. And let me make it clear that Christianity has some great humanistic points to it, some of which scientific atheism is torn apart by, but the existence of things such as hell, free will, moral accountibility and an ultimate being are in battle with each other.

 

[grunge782]

Then you get into the argument of free will, which in my opinion is another paradox with an all knowing, timeless creator.

Not when the creator gave you the ability to have free will.

This is becoming a theological carousel

If you are thrown into a world with a certain mind and soul, with the world already created before you enter it, how do you possibly have the tinniest bit of free will? All your actions and thoughts would be determined by the mind and soul you were given in the environment that was created for you. You didn't have the slightest say in either.

wrong your just wrong once again your applying human logic to Gods creativety. Waste of time.

Ok, just scoop out my feral human brains. Let god's grace fill my empty skull till I'm drunk with his creativety so I can understand then.

 

[ihave27frets]

 

[peaveyT60]

I'm not really sure I understand this "You can be a good Christian, but don't force it on other people". If your world view is that people without your religion are going to be in eternal pain and anguish (at least 60 percent of the world) after about 100 years of life, don't you have a responsibility as a "moral" person to convince them to convert to your religion? It seems hypocritical.

... and this is where you are wrong.

the largest Christian Church (Catholic) in the entire world doesn't preach this. Pope JP2 said that all religions/paths lead to God. my personal beliefs mirror this. i think it is kind of backwards to think a Buddhist monk, who devotes his entire life to doing good, is going to "burn in hell" for eternity.