X-pattern vs Top/Bottom Mix

H

hatrick00

Active member
Curious to get some input here. I am mixing speakers in a Splawn straight 4x12 and wondering if I am doing the best combo. I want to mix my Creamback 65s (G12-M 65) with V30s. I currently have them in a X-pattern and to me it sounds amazing. Very similar actually to my stock Friedman cab. My question is should I have the creamback/V30 in top/bottom setup like my Friedman cab? I am thinking the bass response may be better (which I assume is why Friedman uses that setup for the GBs), but the Creamback 65 has more bass than the GB so maybe could get away with the X pattern better. In the X pattern it sounds amazing in my opinion but of course there is always the question of could it be better. Any input would be appreciated.
 
The X pattern is the most typical way of mixing speakers and I think they might blend together a bit better that way. I really doubt it will make much of a difference though?

I have a Avatar Vintage 4x12 wih V30's and G12t75's in a X patter and it sounds great. It's the most balanced cab I've ever used. Every amp I've put through that cab sounds great. On the other hand I have an all v30 loaded Mesa standard cab and it can sound a bit spikey in the mids with some amps. I would go with the X pattern, but either way will sound good.
 
I think the reason Friedman cabs have the GBs on top is because of the wattage/efficiency difference....GBs are less efficient so they get overpowered by V30s. If they're on top you will hear the mix better. I would leave it alone if you like it.
 
Racerxrated":3eqx6r39 said:
I think the reason Friedman cabs have the GBs on top is because of the wattage/efficiency difference....GBs are less efficient so they get overpowered by V30s. If they're on top you will hear the mix better. I would leave it alone if you like it.
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that's what i am thinking... since they are higher wattage may work in the x better.. it actually sounds very close to my friedman cab, but the friedman cab sounds a bit more open. my nitro and evh stealth love the creamback/v30 mix, even better than all v30s. i find it is a great cab for any head that is very tight. my 20th shiva still sounds best through my splawn 4x12 with all v30s though. but if you find 4 v30s to be a bit harsh these are a great option to mix in. i also want to try mixing the creamback 75s with v30s. have heard many good things about that combo.
 
x pattern secondary to column effect. drivers must be within 1db sensitivity as well.

"When you start stacking boxes something else comes in - the column effect. Point sources in phase stacked up cause a radiation pattern that is fan-shaped, wide horizontally but confined vertically. The longer the column the greater the effect. Placed side-by-side the effect is rotated 90 degrees so that it is narrow left-to-right but fans up and down (+/- stage and carpet), and in most venues this is not desirable."

Read ROLY posts here for more info :

http://www.guitargear.net.au/discussion ... 55.15.html
 
Racerxrated":1ujooige said:
I think the reason Friedman cabs have the GBs on top is because of the wattage/efficiency difference....GBs are less efficient so they get overpowered by V30s. If they're on top you will hear the mix better. I would leave it alone if you like it.
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This. If the db efficiency of the speakers is the same, go X pattern. If not, put the louder speakers on bottom. Otherwise, the X pattern will sound unbalanced. This has been my experience. Bottom line as always though, what works for some guys may not work for you. You have to try it for yourself.
 
Mr. Willy":2fh0ix0f said:
Racerxrated":2fh0ix0f said:
I think the reason Friedman cabs have the GBs on top is because of the wattage/efficiency difference....GBs are less efficient so they get overpowered by V30s. If they're on top you will hear the mix better. I would leave it alone if you like it.
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This. If the db efficiency of the speakers is the same, go X pattern. If not, put the louder speakers on bottom. Otherwise, the X pattern will sound unbalanced. This has been my experience. Bottom line as always though, what works for some guys may not work for you. You have to try it for yourself.
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My experience also. I put v30s in my EVH cab, bottom 2, but I like the way it sounds on its side better. It is wired parallel series. so now I play it like this.
 
X-pattern always sounded best to me but only if the speakers are similar in specs and never more than 2-3dB off from each other. I have a Splawn 4x12 and Friedman 4x12. I have an X-pattern of SmallBlocks and Creamback 65's in the Splawn and I don't like it, sounded better with all Smallblocks (this is just played with the Splawn head). I need to put back the two Smallblocks and take out the Creambacks. Creamback 65's to me sounds pretty dark at first and have well rounded bass, so for this reason I like them in a smaller cab like a 1X12 or 2x12.

The Friedman 4x12 I have kept stock, but lately I've been thinking of using a V30-G12H30 combo, from what I heard on a clip it sounded more "in your face" and present. The BE100 sounds best with it's matching 4x12 CRANKED, but at lower volumes I think it benefits more with a little brighter speaker combo on top, just IMHO, especially if your practicing in a dead room with sound-dampening panels.

OP, I'd just try for yourself and see there are a few that mix V30-CB65's, and as bad as I wanted them to work it just didn't... sounded unbalanced and weird. A massive 4dB SPL (sound level) difference. 100dB V30 & 96dB Creamback M65.
 
some good points being made here... FYI the Creamback 65 is 97db and the V30 is 100db... so def a difference there. on paper i would be inclined to agree that yes, the v30 should be on bottom and creamback on top. but if that was the standard why is it that when mixing t75s and V30s people usually use the X-pattern (my Bogner Uberkab). the t75 is 97db also, so that is the same 3 db difference.
 
Even though there is a difference in db, the t75 has a different frequency that cuts through and blends well with v30. My opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I used to use the X-pattern, but am not keen on it anymore.

I'm re-wiring my cabs so they are "top/bottom" mix.
In one cab I have two WGS ET-65 12" speakers on top, and an EV 12S 200 watt speaker on the bottom with some other 'Radial Beam' speaker I found. I'm not sure how it will sound all together yet, but the ET-65 speakers do sound great on their own.

The other cab has Mesa/Boogie Black Shadow MC90 speakers on top, and EV 12s 200 watt speakers on the bottom. I can't wait to get them revved up.
 
As a follow up... I rewired the Splawn cab to be top bottom with the cream65s/v30. I liked it WAY better in x pattern. Sounded like a blanket over the cab with the top/bottom, which was my main concern with the all cream65 4x12. That being said I stand by my Friedman cab which is top bottom. I must just like the sound of the gbs more. I am now gonna try the cream75s/v30 in x pattern. My only question is to put that in my Splawn cab or my Uberkab and replace the t75s in the uberkab with some cream75s.
 
hatrick00":1mwnz1k4 said:
As a follow up... I rewired the Splawn cab to be top bottom with the cream65s/v30. I liked it WAY better in x pattern. Sounded like a blanket over the cab with the top/bottom, which was my main concern with the all cream65 4x12. That being said I stand by my Friedman cab which is top bottom. I must just like the sound of the gbs more. I am now gonna try the cream75s/v30 in x pattern. My only question is to put that in my Splawn cab or my Uberkab and replace the t75s in the uberkab with some cream75s.
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Bumping. Interesting I found this thread... I play Friedmans and have the 4x12. The GB's seem to rob a bit of the punch in that cab, so i'm looking to replace the GB's for something similar, but with more "balls". I like the V30s. So I've looked at the CB65, CB75, Redbacks and maybe Scumbacks (though I hear the Scumbs could be too "vintage" for hard rock/metal).

I've only heard the Uberkab which was glorious, but it's FL.

Seeing what others have done and where they landed on T/B vs. X. I also play live quite a bit, if that makes any difference.
 
I've always been one for matching brands - heads and cabs - until I stopped :LOL: :LOL:

UberKab is my No.1 cab - regardless of amp - for all heavier stuff, and it even sounds awesome for cleans, sweet finger-picking goodness and more. But takes SPLs without ever flubbing...ever.

Fryette Deliverance 412 is my No.2 cab - regardless of amp - for everything else, loaded to taste, V30s, Greenies, Creams, whatever. They are hands down super versatile, amazingly well built, offer stereo option use, and are well priced. Billy Howerdel's cab of choice - and he's not just a player, but an excellent tech...there's a reason these cabs work so well under varied conditions and applications.

Just my 2 cents.
Mo :rock:
 
The Deliverance 4x12 is a really great cab. It has a unique design and sound. No other 4x12 really sounds like it. It has so much definition and clarity.
 
Is the friedman cab stereo? That might be another reason why they are arranged top bottom.
I have a cab here with T75 top, V30 bottom. Sounds great to me (but i havent tried them in X)
 
stephen sawall":1fwhhnvy said:
The Deliverance 4x12 is a really great cab. It has a unique design and sound. No other 4x12 really sounds like it. It has so much definition and clarity.
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And go figure, they're not made by B.A.D. :thumbsup:

As for the X versus 2up/2down per the OP, I think it depends a lot on the artist and player's wants and needs. Live settings, they may want the sweeter cones pointed at them (ie: G12M Greens) with the heavier balls on the bottom (ie V30). In a live setting, if it gets mic'd, makes no difference to the listeners, and even then, if you're mic'ing a gig, the players may already be wearing IEMs or using floor monitors, so it's really a personal preference over science at the artist level; at the marketing level of the brands, it's a whole different ballgame ;)

I don't think I'd be able to tell you from 25ft away whether a cab was X loaded or 2x2 loaded if it was pushing air - and I've got good ears. Up close and personal, different story. And again, if it's for mic'ing, would make no difference to me barring ground-pound-bass-and-bleed if mic'd up properly.

One thing I have learned over the years is to trust my ears, and although it's real purdy to have a matchy matchy set of amps and cabs, much of the time it's marketing with 5 different cab brands all being made by the same outlet the same way; just a different backplate, badge and grille cloth at best.

:dunno:
 
The only way to know is to try them out unfortunately.

I tried doing some speaker combos in my Rivera 412 and in the end I liked the creamback H top and K100 bottom the most. I just don't like the K100 and Redbacks on top for whatever reason, something about the high end just bugs me. I do have a front loaded ubercab too and it does sound great.

4x k100
2x k100, 2x redback x-pattern
2x k100, 2x creamback H x-pattern
2x k100 bottom, 2x creamback H top
2x redback, 2x creamback H x-pattern

I'm not too big on the redbacks personally, mine are 8 Ohm if you want to try them out shoot me a pm or email. I'm not going to use them so better someone else have them lol (I have 2).
 
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