"Bogner blanket"

[yngzaklynch]

IMHO, the "Bogner Blanket" is due to playing at "bedroom levels", which any of these 100W (beautifully made and voiced) heads is NOT meant for.

Get a 101B, Rev.2 or Anny20thA past noon on the MV??? And the only blanket is the one flying off your bed

 

[rupe]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

 

[lespaul6]

it is only because people set amps with eyes and not ears. dime a control pussies.

Wondering, which control magically takes the "tarp over the speaker" effect away. The Treble? beyond 3:00 way too much sizzle, not cut, sizzle. Same with the Presence. Another question is, why do so many people bitch about it? People who are playing decades and know how to dial in an amp, are suddenly asshole because they can't get anything from the amp? These assholes are "dialing with their eyes"? Really?

You heard the Helios vids. Tell me, how do you get a 101b to sound like that?

The point here is logarhytmic (audio) dirty Treble pot and C40 Excursion cap. Log Audio pot darkens the tone as in halfway it makes the 10% resistance of linear one, then the resistance increases dramatically, becoming actually "Sizzle" control. See here: http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/p ... ttaper.gif. So, it basically doesn't brighten the tone despite turning it up. It only makes the amp fizzy sounding beyong 2-3 o 'clock.

C40 cap darkens the poweramp, making it less in-front, even if You turn up the Presence (which is also 25k pot, unlike classic Marshall 5-10K value, so actually it isn't as accurate). If You like, check my thread in Bogner subforum where I have posted the clips with and without C40 caps. You'll hear for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=154260.

So, those two things make the 101B backed off in mix IN CERTAIN circumstances. It is a great amp, but in some situations it is problematic to cut thru. That was my problem in my band, where there are two guitars and bright DSL amp used by second guitarist. Diming the controls unfortunately hadn't helped with "pussy attitude" - I was barely hearable, even with volume turned up. It was loud then but still not hearable, not cutting. In a meantime I was changing pickups, cables, speakers, everything. The effect was actually inconsiderable. But I didn't want to take part with this great amp...

So in certain situations there is something like 101B "blanket effect". And maybe before calling someone a pussy one might accept that there is sometimes a state of affairs where even tuning the amp by ears and diming everything like being not a pussy doesn't help - because of a nature of an amp. In one band it shines, in others - not that much . Reaching that point You got two ways - You can sell it then or You may try to tune it. I did it second way and the result is astonishing. For me of course, but in my situation it is the only thing I care . In the other words - I love this great amp now, 'cause after the mods done ACCORDING TO MY NEEDS it became even more perfect than it is already in stock state.

Regardless of few other mods done, only changing Treble taper to linear and removing C40 cap made the amp a beast. Now I hardly turn the Volume past the 9:30 o clock. I simply don't have to. The Resonance control 250K pot soldered in place of R62 L Excursion resistor is set to add ~75K resistance to nfb circuit, making poweramp more gainy and in-front. I have my dirty Treble set at 2 o'clock - IN THE VERY SAME PLACE as having log pot. But it finally works now! The tone cuts like a knife, my Buddy has to set the Volume to 4-5 - so basically to the half - to achieve same amount of audibility as mine.

Regards, Andy

great post... those who understand the circuit know it to be a darkened circuit. Do you believe that the C40 mod and the treble pot mod will bring it closer to the original 1959 circuit?

 

[rlord1974]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

Word.

 

[steve_k]

it is only because people set amps with eyes and not ears. dime a control pussies.

Wondering, which control magically takes the "tarp over the speaker" effect away. The Treble? beyond 3:00 way too much sizzle, not cut, sizzle. Same with the Presence. Another question is, why do so many people bitch about it? People who are playing decades and know how to dial in an amp, are suddenly asshole because they can't get anything from the amp? These assholes are "dialing with their eyes"? Really?

You heard the Helios vids. Tell me, how do you get a 101b to sound like that?

The point here is logarhytmic (audio) dirty Treble pot and C40 Excursion cap. Log Audio pot darkens the tone as in halfway it makes the 10% resistance of linear one, then the resistance increases dramatically, becoming actually "Sizzle" control. See here: http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/p ... ttaper.gif. So, it basically doesn't brighten the tone despite turning it up. It only makes the amp fizzy sounding beyong 2-3 o 'clock.

C40 cap darkens the poweramp, making it less in-front, even if You turn up the Presence (which is also 25k pot, unlike classic Marshall 5-10K value, so actually it isn't as accurate). If You like, check my thread in Bogner subforum where I have posted the clips with and without C40 caps. You'll hear for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=154260.

So, those two things make the 101B backed off in mix IN CERTAIN circumstances. It is a great amp, but in some situations it is problematic to cut thru. That was my problem in my band, where there are two guitars and bright DSL amp used by second guitarist. Diming the controls unfortunately hadn't helped with "pussy attitude" - I was barely hearable, even with volume turned up. It was loud then but still not hearable, not cutting. In a meantime I was changing pickups, cables, speakers, everything. The effect was actually inconsiderable. But I didn't want to take part with this great amp...

So in certain situations there is something like 101B "blanket effect". And maybe before calling someone a pussy one might accept that there is sometimes a state of affairs where even tuning the amp by ears and diming everything like being not a pussy doesn't help - because of a nature of an amp. In one band it shines, in others - not that much . Reaching that point You got two ways - You can sell it then or You may try to tune it. I did it second way and the result is astonishing. For me of course, but in my situation it is the only thing I care . In the other words - I love this great amp now, 'cause after the mods done ACCORDING TO MY NEEDS it became even more perfect than it is already in stock state.

Regardless of few other mods done, only changing Treble taper to linear and removing C40 cap made the amp a beast. Now I hardly turn the Volume past the 9:30 o clock. I simply don't have to. The Resonance control 250K pot soldered in place of R62 L Excursion resistor is set to add ~75K resistance to nfb circuit, making poweramp more gainy and in-front. I have my dirty Treble set at 2 o'clock - IN THE VERY SAME PLACE as having log pot. But it finally works now! The tone cuts like a knife, my Buddy has to set the Volume to 4-5 - so basically to the half - to achieve same amount of audibility as mine.

Regards, Andy

Great post and explanation. Saved for reference....

 

[glassjaw7]

Bugera Bees

 

[C1-ocaster]

it is only because people set amps with eyes and not ears. dime a control pussies.

This isn't rocket science. Turn it on, turn it up and CHANGE the eq to your liking!! I just grabbed an SLO and last weekend, through G12 65s my presence was maxed, treble off mids 6 bass 8 and it was GREAT. Last night, used an EVH cab with the greenies and had to add treble to that same eq as it is a darker cab than the old Marshall. Turning knobs really isn't difficult lol..

True that sometimes you have to really turn a knob.
As someone else said you set controls based on what you hear not on how it looks.
But, that's a bit too simplistic in thinking that just turning a dial will greatly alter a tone.
That would be true IF the amp is designed in that way.

Yet, sometimes some amp's tone controls are designed to operate within a specific narrow range so even turning them full on or off can't help tune in your tone. Without an external eq you're stuck with the designers/engineers idea of what the low, mid, and treble can control. The tone controls are notch filters designed to increase or decrease a specific band in the eq, so you may want to add a bit of brightness in the mid-high range but find that neither the mid nor high/treble control is actually hitting that frequency or range you need to control.

Parametric eq's and great yet complicated, but they allow you to choose a certain frequency to adjust and then you can boost of cut, and you can also affect the range around that frequency so that it's either very narrow, so you can be very specific, or broader so that the curve of the range you are adjusting is also affecting the frequencies around the the one you are adjusting.
I don't know that there is an amp out there that uses a parametric eq.
Mesa goes farther with some of it's amps by adding a graphic eq, so you at least have a good bit more adjustment than just the typical 3 tone knobs.
My Egnater Vengeance amp offers 3 mid ranges so that you can at least shift the mid frequency range that you may want to adjust.

With most amps you have to really like the general voicing because you're only going to be able to tweak around that voicing as you won't have much eq range to really alter it.
If you need something more than what's inherent in your amp you should try an eq, either a graphic style or a parametric for even more detailed control.

BTW, I'm looking at getting a Bogner Red pedal or Wampler Triple Wreck.
These pedals have more tone/voice settings then even the amps they use as their basis.

 

[Setneck]

those who understand the circuit know it to be a darkened circuit.

Exactly Bro. Reinhold's idea when designing 101B was to rework classic 1959 putting as much "darkness" to it as it was possible. That is why he put audio Treble pot, C40 and lowered 2nd gain stage to 2.38K. And done much more tweaks darkening the tone...

Do you believe that the C40 mod and the treble pot mod will bring it closer to the original 1959 circuit?

Totally. Those two mods are essential, most of all opening the amp, make it more in-front and cutting, while still strongly retaining Bogner woodyness and chewiness. I'd add to it lowering Presence pots resistance to 5-10K, which doesn't affect the tone as such but makes Presence controls more sensitive and usable (I have 10K).

If You want to step closer to 1959 territory You might replace PI output caps to 22nF and put fixed 2k7//2.2uF 2nd gain stage combo to R11 place (removing R43 and C2 - I've noticed that Structure circuit somewhat messes with the tone too). That is the 2nd gain stage value in 100B and Classic. Love the Blue with those mods - it is even more similar to hotrodded classic Plexi/800 tone than it is stock in 101B. It also makes Red much less compressed.

There are of course more tweaks done to the 1959 circuit (different voltage dividers, lowered preamp voltage, lowered 1st & 2nd coupling caps values, etc.), but those are not so critical. Five mods described above, easy to do and eventually easy to reverse, tune the amp to be a perfect cross between Bogner flavour and classic Marshall crunch.

If of course someone needs that .

Regards, Andy

 

[carlygtr]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

I guess that's why people playing it loud are still bitching about it. Good call.

 

[rupe]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

I guess that's why people playing it loud are still bitching about it. Good call.

They're either lying, dialed it in with their eyes, dialed it in outside of a full band mix, or have dead ears.

 

[carlygtr]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

I guess that's why people playing it loud are still bitching about it. Good call.

They're either lying, dialed it in with their eyes, dialed it in outside of a full band mix, or have dead ears.

 

[RG955TT]

I have a 101b and a 20th, the 20th doesn't really have this "issue" but I also used the 101b in several bands, setting did have a lot to do with it as did tube choices. If the presence wasn't over 2pm it wouldn't cut that great but between 2 and 3 the amp sounded great especially at a little volume, cut fine, sounded great out front in 2 guitar band. It is a thicker meatier tone than many amps and I think that contributes to some of the issues some people have. I let several guys play thru my 101b in a "battle of" show a few years ago and it sounded great and I could hear them fine outfront in the mix. Many amps are way too bright for me so the Bogners work well for what I want. They record especially well IMO.

 

[rupe]

Gotta love bedroom players commenting on 100w amps. If you're not playing it as it was meant to be played...at volume...you're opinion is next to meaningless.
Having owned two Bogners (101B and 6L6 Shiva), I can confidently say that any perceived "blanket" effect is user error, period. No issue with my old Fish either when matched up to a Mesa 2:90.

I guess that's why people playing it loud are still bitching about it. Good call.

They're either lying, dialed it in with their eyes, dialed it in outside of a full band mix, or have dead ears.

 

[rupe]

I have a 101b and a 20th, the 20th doesn't really have this "issue" but I also used the 101b in several bands, setting did have a lot to do with it as did tube choices. If the presence wasn't over 2pm it wouldn't cut that great but between 2 and 3 the amp sounded great especially at a little volume, cut fine, sounded great out front in 2 guitar band. It is a thicker meatier tone than many amps and I think that contributes to some of the issues some people have. I let several guys play thru my 101b in a "battle of" show a few years ago and it sounded great and I could hear them fine outfront in the mix. Many amps are way too bright for me so the Bogners work well for what I want. They record especially well IMO.

How can that be...bedroom players have stated otherwise?

 

[steve_k]

There seems to be a market for 100 watt bedrooms.

 

[carlygtr]

I have a 101b and a 20th, the 20th doesn't really have this "issue" but I also used the 101b in several bands, setting did have a lot to do with it as did tube choices. If the presence wasn't over 2pm it wouldn't cut that great but between 2 and 3 the amp sounded great especially at a little volume, cut fine, sounded great out front in 2 guitar band. It is a thicker meatier tone than many amps and I think that contributes to some of the issues some people have. I let several guys play thru my 101b in a "battle of" show a few years ago and it sounded great and I could hear them fine outfront in the mix. Many amps are way too bright for me so the Bogners work well for what I want. They record especially well IMO.

How can that be...bedroom players have stated otherwise?

Where can we see you play? Any live vids? With a 101b?

 

[RG955TT]

Yeah why, doubt it would change your mind and I have nothing to prove...but yeah there are live vids

 

[carlygtr]

There seems to be a market for 100 watt bedrooms.

Actually got a few old 101b clips

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6460876

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=5970770

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=5977681

 

[RG955TT]

You continue to be a first class asshole Carly....but seem to be the trend with you. but just to shut you up..https://www.youtube.com/user/SPLBand

ALL 101B! All from cheap video camera

There seems to be a market for 100 watt bedrooms.

You're another big mouth. Any live vids of you around, cutting thru w/ a 101b? or are you just a buyer/seller/picture taker?

 

[Rogue]

Perhaps a clip to help you guys that can't hear it...